Who else is substituting WhatsApp?

Well it depends. If you can’t avoid to give your data to someone, I would also prefer to not give all the data to one company, so nobody has all the data in one hand and can collect a complete profile of everything I do, buy, watch or hear.

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First world problems

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Partly yes.
I guess we are on an equal mind: we do create as little as it is possible.
But to spread these little data to more services or companies is like an encryption and makes it harder for those to crate a usable profile of you as a person.

It’s complicated.

Irony on

I’m on WhatsApp, because my mom is on WhatsApp. And a lot of stubborn people who will never change.

I’m on Telegram to read the latest conspiracy theories. :nauseated_face:

I’m on Facebook Messenger to communicate with @urs_lesse about “Fairphone-Freunde”.

I’m on Threema, because… well, I don’t know. It’s swiss, it’s cool. I guess a friend of mine forced me to use it, because it’s the only messenger he’s using.

I’m on Signal, because it’s No. 1 on Google Play. And I like to go with the flow… :grin:

#WTF# is clubhouse?

I guess I should switch back to good old text messages with T9 keyboard…

Irony off

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Yes, we all should. Well, except for the whole “Patriot Act”-Story.

Well, yes. But not unimportant questions (remember Snowden). Data usage is freely visible to the big tech companies. They know all about you. What can they do with this knowledge? It is hard to say. But in europe they had a similar situation in the Warsaw-Pact-Nations, you know, your friendly-Stalin-states. In china they have total control over the individuals data. Have you heard of their social-ranking system? So … We do not want to go there as the first world.

I’m going with ‘First world problems’

Each of us chooses what to consume and in turn we are consumed, it’s part of this thing called life, when in truth it’s fear of death and consumption.

It seems disingenuous to complain about someone trying to eat us, although understandable, you can try and make yourself as unpalatable as possible, but some virus will adapt and exploit us, without our consent.

That’s what plants and animals do. None of us is an angel, just small and bigger killing machines. :slight_smile:

A keyboard :heart_eyes:
get haptic response, knowing by the feeling sense when the character is entered and be able to type blind. Just a few more years and a fancy company will reinvent it and it will be cool again.

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What would be an appropriate name for such a company? Strawberry? Gooseberry? Backberry? Fairberry?

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Dear amoun,

Following this logic, every move towards constructing anything is inherently futile because some other force will destroy it inevitably. But you are missing the point. For a short period of time, there was something else then death.

Also this, in your terms, “prey” adopts. In our case open-source development has shown to be able to adapt to external threats. Not only once has the linux-kernel fixed some security issue. Obviously the ingenious kid will be able to exploit our software in use, but in my eye it is by far worse to implement the “predator” in your system. You invited the panther for supper. Plus the ingenious kid might still exploit you.

Best regards
-Hendrik Dorn

P.S.: A vast population in Europe and America suffers from depression (not necessarily on a clinical level, but the symptoms are there). This is a first world problem. But it would be naive to dismiss it as benign.

Why is it so difficult to realise… that the desire for security creates insecurity. The more privacy oriented we become the more paranoid we become. We don’t want privacy, we think we want it but what we really want is the opposite, to end the need to hide in the shadows.

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I’m pretty close to completely moving away from WA. I have most of my contacts on Threema, Element and Skype (the latter mainly because one mate doesn’t have a smartphone and another one sticks with just WA and Skype). There is still one of my groups on WA where 3 people haven’t made a move yet. Could turn out to be the last reason to stay. Unless WA starts displaying ads, then I’d be out immediately :wink:

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Hi Ingo,
instead of Skype, use jitsi: https://jitsi.org/
No account needed :slight_smile: While I am unclear on their privacy policy on the server, their source code is open source. You gain relative privacy at much ease.

Many greetings
-Hendrik

Why?

If you are actually being followed, paranoia seems a reasonable response. I mean, when you see a red dot between your eyes, you probably wont feel the desire to sip a cocktail. Then again, we do not want to blindly follow any trend, but with the WA policy changed we have as concrete a case as humanly possible. That combined with the facebook-fiddle in american politics. Mhm. Better change.

Many greetings
-Hendrik

Because this is how the human brain works, it is always seeking for more and is always left unsatisfied because it is utterly terrified of its own inner vacuum. We don’t want privacy because it is good, but because we’re afraid of getting hurt. So, this way privacy does not solve the underlying issue, it is putting a bandaid on a gangrene. To me this is obvious, but sometimes I forget that this is not yet a common knowledge.

My point is it is a waste of energy.

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I would like to give more likes to @existentionaut but I’m only allowed one so this is for other ones.

Hi existentionaut,

with the premisse, which one could call “being unsatisfied”, I can agree. This is one part of human nature. Is it the dominant part? Hard to say. Never arriving at, lets say, paradise, to me is not a reason to stop looking for it.

I mean, we both are discussing on the FP-Forum. So we both have a FP, I assume. This means, we both decided to try reduce unfairness in the world. But there will never be a perfectly fair world. We both tried though. Was this trying then futile?

But, you know, you can just use the tools you want to use and I use the ones I like. So far, I have not tried to convince anybody to switch sides. If this means, that I will chase my " privacy paradise" for all eternity, so be it. Call me Sysiphus.

Many greetings
-Hendrik

P.S.: I almost forgot. Your premise explains not my question. I do not see the link between unsatisfaction and the feeling of less and less security. For me it is actually not true. Since I started using free software, a great relief has taken me. Not having a spy in my bedroom any more is very satisfying.

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This part I agree with as the world is not designed by God or Mankind to be fair, but each person of integrity has the option of being fairer. However the outcome is not a fairer world but a fairer person that will reach perfection upon death (maybe) as they will cease to consume.

Everything is futile if the future is seen as a solution to the present. Building a future on past experiences is just a futile attempt to avoid the void, i.e. the lacking of grace.

God exists not in the past but in the making of your soul ~ is that a bit much ~ apologies for atheists who argue the non existence of God.

Paranoia is real whether of God, Human or Other but the threat is only to our consumerism and in turn being consumed, pretty inevitable :slight_smile:

Security and privacy are a challenge for us as a society.
There are many challenges we have to face as a whole. Like climate change it is one we can not solve as individuals.
Unlike climate change it is easy to solve and we have the tools.
If you as a individual are not interested in privacy let me draw you this picture.

Part 1, Perfectistan:
You are absolutely transparent, what you earn, where you shop. Its known what you watch and for whom you vote.
Every text you write your employer can read, every call you make your government can listen to.
And that is all perfectly fine because the country you are living in is the perfect state, like you it has never done anything wrong.
You have nothing to hide so you show it all, and nobody would use the information you give against you.

Part 2, Opressiania:
Your niece wants to travel around the world and leaves Perfectistan.
She enters a different country and notices some subtle differences.
It is not perfect, technology is used to monitor that everyone is in line.
People talk carefully, messages are short and only on neutral topics.
They use the same technology as you do but they are afraid to speak up, point to structural problems in the state, or at the place of employment.
There is no option to whistleblow because every bit of information is tracked back to the origin.

If we as a whole ignore privacy because we (think we) are in a ivory tower of perfectness we enable others,
who are in less perfect circumstances, to use the same technology for oppression.
As long as privacy is not the default we give those who want to use information to change elections a easy way to do so.
When people stand out because they use different technology in an attempt to inform others about some wrongdoing it puts them in danger.

Rejecting privacy out of selfish motivation does hurt us all, people in Perfectistan don’t see it-
but they support Opressiania by legitimization of insecure technology.

Targeted advertisement has and will change the outcome of elections,
insecure communication creates the inability of speaking about exploitation and supports suppression.
That’s why I prefer to be viewed as security/privacy nutcase for as long as people need to realize that,
rather then to take the easy way because I have nothing to hide and everyone uses it.

Denying or ignoring security and privacy because you have nothing to hide is like not getting a vaccination because you are healthy and have nothing to fear.
It is not about you and me, its about us all.
Security and privacy is a group effort.

Threema and Conversations with OMEMO for encryption is fine for me, I like decentralized solutions more.

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Dear @angry_dodo,

Nicely put. A bit extreme, but useful to make the point.

Is threema decentralized? I thought they have servers in switzerland where they store your date. Signal stores messages decentralized, but you connect to people over a central server.

Best regards
-Hendrik