Option to limit charging to maximum 80%

Discuss The Products
,
82

Hi Steffen95,

This thread where your initial post was moved, is one of many topics on the subject of battery life or longevity, from which you will gather that there are many like-minded Fairphoners who think this is important and worth pursuing actively, but also many who don’t. Personally, like you, I’m all for it!

You’ll also see that there are contributions from FP staff. Their avatars carry a special “F” label.

But let’s look at it from the manufacturer’s perspective. For example, bear in mind, that providing software to manage this, implies constant care on the part of the manufacturer to verify continuing compatibility with every OS update, so it’s an added complication and expense. Nothing worse than having lots of topics and mails to Support, entitled, “Phone not charging after update to 3.A.nnnn”. If you have billions to spend, like A & G, then you could arguably be criticized for not spending a bit on such software and the subsequent support. However, FP is not in that league - which is one of the reasons why we’re all here :slightly_smiling_face:

Then there’s the question of implementation. A large number of people don’t really think about this sort of question at all, despite our best efforts communicating on the subject, so either you would want to activate a default longevity policy, or else accept that your efforts will be wasted on a major proportion of users. And of course, if you daringly implement a default longevity policy, then you’re likely to have users in droves, who haven’t read the manual, complaining about their phone never charging beyond 70% or whatever. Maybe I’m overly pessimistic.

Alternatively, you can decide to leave it to your clients, of whom many are conscientious, as you know, to work out a solution for themselves, such as an app (for the nerdy ones - will however require root) or something like my own very simple approach. This would appear to be FP’s current position - but of course this is just my opinion …

That’s the thing to do!

2 Likes
83

Hi OldRoutard,
thanks for the reply :slight_smile:

That’s absolut right what you are writing, but I heard that there are also hardware solution, where the battery is directly limited, so the you can’t charge the battery in a unhealthy state. The user would still see 100% when the set limit is reached and the more nerdy persons would be happy to get a more sustainable battery. Maybe there even have already something like that and we just don’t know, because they don’t communicate anything about this topic. I think for the majority the sustainability is the most important part to buy the Fairphone and the most people don’t complain about the less battery charge, until it last at least a day. On the other side they advertise like other company’s that the phone can charge up to 50% in half an hour with the Fairphone 4 which I guess also have bad influence of the battery lifespan. Please correct me if I am wrong. It can be useful for sometimes, but regular in daily life I think the majority of people don’t care if the phone needs a bit longer or shorter to charge.

I think at least it would be possible for Fairphone make a guidline where people can learn how to charge their battery sustainable. That means Information about their measurements (if they have any), about the recommended charging speed (Probably the slowest with the normal USB 2 standard?), the recommended healthy percentage range where to hold the phone in, if possible and maybe other useful tips.

Yesterday I wrote them, but until now they didn’t replay.
I will let you all know if news come in.

2 Likes
84

I agree, that’s the least they could do!

I believe the limiting of charge to a reduced percentage of the battery’s maximum capacity while showing “100%” is already a practice with electric vehicles.

On the subject of fast charging, I believe a lot of work has gone into research on this in recent years, again especially driven by the automotive industry (no pun intended!!) : they need to get car batteries charging at motorway service stations in the time it takes to have a coffee and get rid of the last one. Phone batteries will benefit from these improvements and maybe fast charging from 20% to 60% does less damage than before, but as I understand it, slow charging continues to be preferable for longevity.

Keep us posted! :slightly_smiling_face:

2 Likes
85

Ok On the first point I would hope the Fairtrade is most important and common reason for buying the ‘Fair’ phone, not the ‘Sust’ phone :slight_smile:

Secondly the charging rate of the battery is set by a complex algorithm and uses the QC3 charging routine.

The OS is the default Android which has to go through 500,000 test with google before it is authorised.

It’s pretty clear that unless there are extenuating circumstance the charging algorithms set are the optimum for consumers.

Some people may want the battery to last longer and be prepared to charge it more frequently, other will not find it a big deal…

It is likely more of a worry that a realistic impediment upon the user or the environment.

That’s not difficult to do by using some old charger or cable. If there is no communication between the phone and the charger via QC3 the phone will only use 5V. However although this may be a slow charge and you may think it is therefore more benign, it isn’t really and then you still have to switch it off at 90% or whatever.

You can install apps to help but that clearly isn’t a common option, hence Fairphone and other manufacturers probably don’t give it too much consideration when developing the OS

By the way I do not think there is any internal hardware in a phone that could do anything, like a switch that clicks when the battery gets hot ~ it’s all software controlled. The battery itself contains software so as not to over charge which feeds back to the core module etc.

86

I think you have a wrong definition of sustainability.
Sustainability is not only when something is economic friendly.
Sustainability is also when it’s social and economical.

I think for the most people not only the Fair-Trade parts count, but the hole sustainability of this phone. But I of course only guess and don’t know!

Yes but not the optimum for the battery lifetime. It will be a optimum balance between speed, capacity, lifetime and maybe even more parameters. The Question ist how big is the difference in the battery lifespan between both option.

I think you mean with old cable a USB cable without data lanes. As far as I know these are used to communicate about the volt and ampere the device need and can get. Also for the FP 4 it only use 5 V and only put up the Ampere to max 4 A, so you get your 20 Watt. Probably it is the same for the FP 3. Thanks for the tip!

That was a bad formulation. I mean the in the hardware (battery) integrated software (that communicate with the charger) as opposite to the OS.

87

This is a public response to a private message that asked me to explain the basis of my statement

The basic are that batteries have an optimum set by the manufacture of the specific battery. In the case of the FP3 that is about 3C i.e. 3A for one hour.

Fairphone recommend the QC3 and quote 3 hours as the time to charge.

Using a quick charger may get 80% in just over an hour but the other 20% may take 2 hours.

Without a QC3 or some other controller manufactures may reduce the charge rate to extend the battery life as once the battery is 80%~90% the charge rate should be reduced.

However the charge rate is controlled by the voltage and with the FP3 rated at 4.4V fully charged, hence the controls required for a quick charger that can use maybe 20V to such power along a thin cable.

Overall a continuous charging at lower voltage does not extend the life of a battery but is less of an issue for an inattentive person. It feels safer to think I am charging the battery slowly and it may take 7 hours at 0.5A. Ideally a charge at the battery may only be 4.4V max but that is the voltage after the ‘core module’ plays it’s part. So a USB 5V seems pretty safe as it is further reduced.

By the way the FP3 use a HIGH voltage Lithium battery of 4.4V not the older 4.2V

The first is taken from How to Charge a Li-Ion Battery Correctly and Safely for those that may like to make thier own charger.

In “1C”, “C” refers to the AH or the mAH value of the battery, meaning if the Li-ion cell is rated at 2600mAH then the “C” value becomes 2600, or 2.6 Amps, which implies that it can be charged at its full 1C, or at 2.6 amps if required.

Companies of these cells encourage charging with 0.8C or less in order to lengthen battery life; on the other hand, many Power Cells will acquire an increased charge C-rate using minor stress.

Charge performance is approximately 99 percent and the cell continues to be cool in the course of charging process.

A number of Li-ion batts may possibly encounter a temperature surge of approximately 5ºC (9ºF) while achieving 100 % charge. This might be as a result of protection circuit and raised internal resistance.

The second is from a detailed study, which is a really big read :slight_smile:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590116819300116

The above paper, in section 3, shows the heat from charging a single 4.4Ah cell at 70A pulsed. You can see how the heat spreads as the battery charges.

With a QC3 quick charge the FP3 may take 15V and charge a depleted battery quicker in the first stage. For example It may do this by converting the 15V @ 1A maybe to 5V at 3A for a short time ~ up to 80%. Then falls back to 5V at 1A until the battery feeds back that it no longer require charging and the core module can cut or limit the feed. Using a 5V USB 0.5A their is no way to cut the supply and if the battery is full it will begin to warm whichever is used QC3 or 5V USB.

If the battery warms the degradation is speeded up, It is the warming that defines the damage not the rate of charge.

So it is not untrue that a lower voltage and slower charge rate may be of benefit as there is less chance of the battery warming but properly build controllers in the phone and the battery would account for that.

3 Likes
88

So, as promised I share the reply of the support with you.

They will take this topic to their considerations for our future developments. We will see if there come improvements in the future…

As a direct measure their extend there FAQ Wiki topic FP4. Maximize battery lifespan the following point attached.

So at least we have a official recommendation how to load the battery of the FP4 sustainable. Probably the same apply to the older Fairphones.

1.5 - Charge regularly

Situations vary, but we recommend to keep the charge of your battery between 80% and 20% at all times to keep it longer. So there is no need to always have it topped off to 100%, but do not wait until 1% is left, either!

Quick charge and fast charge are possible and convenient, but does not extend the lifetime of your battery. Slow charge does. So like taking care of babies: regularity and moderation will last you a longer time!

@amoun Thanks for the detailed explanation! With that your conclusion seems valid to me.

So generally QC has no significant shortening impact to the battery, but when you load your phone over night it would be better to charge slow so that the phone stays longer in the healthy area between 20% and 80% and not so long at the maximum, which is not good for the battery.
For the short daily charging to 80% (wich should be preferred) QC make sense, because it is way more practical to monitor with the shorter charging time.

If I understand this part correctly you contradict yourself. First you say QC can cut or limit the feed and then that theri is now way to cut whichever QC or not is used.
Does QC cut or limit the feed. Then it probably wouldn’t also so bad to charge with QC the hole night.

3 Likes
89

QC does cut the charge to a low level but when a battery is say 100% or 4.4v it may still have some power that could add heating which is the bane of battery life. So ideally the temp needs monitoring.

No chargers can be perfect but with only 5V there is less to worry about.

90

The temp IS monitored.
The only question is whether the limits are set low enough for your liking.

1 Like
91

When I say ‘ideally’ I don’t doubt that there is a mechanism to do so but that it may not be functioning.

As far as if the temp is good enough for me, I imagine that is set relative to the battery manufactures specification and not of my choosing. :slight_smile:

92

It feels like the post has slightly deviated from the original question:
Why isn’t there an easy software option that limits the charging overnight?

(I’m currently using a Samsung Galaxy S21… i know… I know… I do need it’s featured and specs. But i did purchase 4 fairphone for use by my employees in our company.)
And they pushed an update that allows you to limit the charge to 85%. Purely via the software… If fairphone actually wants their phones to last longer. How come this isn’t a default feature on there?

5 Likes
93
  • An individual can root a phone and apply charge limiting software.
  • Fairphone have chosen a charging regime and quality of battery that even in the FP3 allows for a rwo year warranty including the battery
  • The longevity of the phone is not determined by how long the battery lasts as the battery is easily replaceable
  • I have found no reliable and verifiable data that would lead me to be persuaded that limiting the chrage to 80% would have any significant impact upon the life of the battery let alone that of the phone.

Fairphone being a small company has to manage finances. I doubt putting it’s resources into developing a number of user-wanted bits of software to do -this and that- is not viable and incompatible with their current business plan.

3 Likes
94

An individual can root a phone and apply charge limiting software.

Rooting disables bank apps and related things. It’s not something that someone would have to do to get this feature.

Fairphone have chosen a charging regime and quality of battery that even in the FP3 allows for a rwo year warranty including the battery

Even iphones include warranty including the battery… because you legally have to…

The longevity of the phone is not determined by how long the battery lasts as the battery is easily replaceable

Still means a battery is going to recycling/landfill quicker than it has to.

I have found no reliable and verifiable data that would lead me to be persuaded that limiting the chrage to 80% would have any significant impact upon the life of the battery let alone that of the phone.

Yet there is a ton of evidence out there that you seem to be ignoring

as has been mentioned in previous replies

ALSO, fairphone themeselves even recommends not charging above 80% in their FAQ…

7 Likes
95

If I start with the perspective something isn’t what I want I may find ways to draw attention to my emtional state by publicly declaring such and maybe using hearsay to support my arguments.

In the situation you see you have chosen to use batteryuniversity as backing.

Sadly a) I do not believe anything they ssy
b) the page linked to is a differential type of battery
c) given the similarities in li-ion batteries it can be noted tempersture is the killer not DoD

Wheras a 10% discharge may provide a longer life
a) how often does this process happen per day etc and

b) what level of charge was there before the 10% discharge

There are many variables that are not considered that are valuable to me.

Evidence does’nt equate to truth or fact it is just an opinion. I listen to as much ss i can and then dismiss it all if i cannot verify by my own personal experience that some facts for others play out for me.

I used to maintain radar and missiles in the 60s
For 40 years i’ve lived off grid with solar pannels.

Every opinion is evidence that someone is interested but interest is not the same as functionality.

If i were convinced that charging to 80% was worth the hassle i would do it, but not promote it.

Thanks for your feedback

PS Fairphone are obviously not concerned ir they would provide the option. And what does the 100% read out really mean. These batteries have a charge voltage if 4.4V there are not the old fashioned 4.2V versions.

For longevity this battery has built in controls, controls that are designed to meet certain specs of Fairphone, can it really be so bad?

96

By the way if you like quotes as evidence then there is this from the apple website

A normal battery is designed to retain up to 80% of its original capacity at 500 complete charge cycles when operating under normal conditions. The one-year warranty includes service cover for a defective battery. If it is out of warranty, Apple offers battery service for a charge. Learn more about charge cycles.

97

A 20% loss is a lot for me. I took care of my current FP2 battery by always limiting to 90% then to 85% and poweroff at 5% and I’m currently at 95% capacity after a year and a half. (i.e ~500 charge cycles). I have seen similar batteries at 55% capacity after 2 years and a half which the users didn’t take care of. I know this isn’t statistical evidence, but still a proof it can make a difference.
I would love to have such options available without root. (Same for reducing the processing power to 70% to reduce battery usage which Samsung offer as well, but that’s another topic)

10 Likes
98

Does the latest FP4 have battery charge limiting? This is one of the factors making me wait for FP5. Battery charge limiting is on most flagship phones and the science is proven by now.

99

No. And I doubt a FP5 will have it unless Google decides to add that feature into AOSP (although I agree that feature would be nice).

3 Likes
100

But if you are happy to root the phone I’m sure you can do such.

1 Like
101

I absolutely abused my Pixel 3 battery. Fast charging, wireless charging (while getting very hot), never limited charging to a certain percentage. The battery health after 3.5 years was 70%. In need to be replaced, but I’m surprised some people manage to get a 55% battery health in a shorter timespan. What do you have to do to get there so fast?

4 Likes