@abittner I agree to this to 100%
Yes he is aware of this, if you would have read his post.
Fairphone doesn’t take into consideration the value of the customer feedback (on this “community” forum), this is what this discussion is all about and not about getting support via a contact form (in 2020) like for a private website
they better drop in and they better make use of all of our contributions here. thats what i am talking about. we as a user-base need to finally make us getting heard and understood that we are not to being pushed and shoved around.
hey you are doing it all wrong, please line up over there instead of here. you forgot to say the magic word, you forgot to say pretty please, you are not walking the extra mile just to feed our tool x with yet the same information over again which has been seen lengthy and plenty and extensive discsussion on the forum thread etc.
i am really fed up with this behavior of the companies. this is a fine and well estblished and discussion and technical resource here we have built up and filled ourselves as the users.
Fairphone company should make extensive use of it and not just excuse themselves that this is not their primary bugreporting tool.
this should be the very source and the immediate place for them being able to observe direct feedback on both, their software and hardware releases, the acceptance, the problems, the trouble and the beauty thereof etc.
they better read this place. and make this worthwhile.
I read his post and he - in fact - makes this point quite frequently and already in the beginning.
Still if he wants any action from Fairphone, as he over and over claims, he should adress it at the right people.
And my remark was especially in reference to
What does it help, if all the users in this thread including me truly listen?
We can discuss over and over again, what Fairphone should do with regard to this forum and this community (which is only a fraction of all the Fairphone owners and users); and - don’t get me wrong - I really consider this an interesting and truly worthy topic.
But when it comes to action/conseqeuences, it is only a bit more than discussing it with my friends offline. For Fairphone to take action or even to consider taking action, it has to be heard/read by the right people; and a community forum simply is not the place to achieve this.
As an afterthought:
That’s something, I really don’t get.
How can a user-base have a “mother company”. The forum itself is not even a company and it is not done by the company. All the help, support, information and moderation is done by volunteers, that are not connected to the company other than that they like the product and share the principles (more or less).
In my humble opinion, this concept gives a false impression.
It obviously lacks a “real” concept for the forum, but anyway the forum is hosted on a sub-domain of “fairphone.com” and therefore the expectations are understandable.
This is what what @Stefan told me when I did the same proposal of Fairphone being officially more active on the Forum. It is not just as simple as saying “Fairphone should be more active on this forum”.
Me as well I would like Fairphone to have a greater presence on this forum, but I would like it to stay the community forum. I don’t think it’s that easy to do a compromise between the two, and @rae already does a good job for what she is allowed to say and what she can do IMHO.
This would greatly change the way this Forum is done, the way it works, the way people discuss. It wouldn’t be a forum for community discussions as it is now, or not as much. In people minds, it may become a forum to reach Fairphone and tell them what they should do in their opinion.
Moreover, you can’t replace Fairphone official support. They can’t do everything through the forum IMO, and I think the fact of having two official entities would just create a big mess for a lot of people.
Then, about android 11: I understand why it would be interesting, I understand it could bring more people to Fairphone, but they can’t do everything. I don’t know if they have the ressource of upgrading to android 11, while keeping people working on FPOS’s bugs because they don’t want people to abandon their Fairphone, then also releasing new modules, and continue maintaining the FP2 at the same time.
Android 11 would be a good thing, and it would make people happy having the latest features, but I don’t think it’s an absolute priority for them. Android 10 was already a big step.
Disclaimer: I am not criticizing anyone’s opinion, although it could seem so, only expressing my point of view and why I disagree on certain points. There was no sarcasm meant in this message.
“We may assume…” - what is this, astrology? These things take labour and time, they don’t come about magically because the Moon is in the second house or something.
Well spoken. The chorus crying out for constant updates and new modules and new Fairphone models and smart watches seem to either forget the “fair” bit in “Fairphone” or massively underestimate the amount of work this kind of stuff entails.
It was a matter of two months after the FP3 came out that I encountered the first commenter asking if they should get the FP3 or wait for the FP4 (which must surely be on its way soon!), and it took less time still before people started demanding upgraded modules. Now here is Android 11, it’s been out for three days and in come the screeds about Fairphone ignoring its customers because they didn’t instantly announce if and when an update to the new version is coming.
FP are maintaining updates and repairs for tens of thousands of FP2s that they started selling in 2015, many more FP3s (all of which are still within warranty), and in the meantime managed to produce an upgraded version of a phone they started selling less than a year ago. For the life of me I don’t know what more people want, other than for FP to instantly, magically manifest a perfectly functional version of an OS that was released three days ago.
And - imho - one should keep in mind, that Fairphone has to manage a lot oft social media channels already. Doing this forum as well would be quite a task for a small company.
And one has to consider the legal aspects. Would this be an official FP channel, they would be legally responsible and therefore might be liable for what is posted. So they would have to employ the moderators. It simply can not be a community forum and an official FP channel at the same time.
Regarding Fairphone listening to this forum and the valuable input:
At least I simply don’t know, to what extent FP is watching this forum.
- That they don’t post doesn’t mean they don’t read.
- That the ideas posted here are not (immediately) realised, doesn’t mean, they are not discussed at FP, or will be realised later.
Fairphone just is not (yet?) a global player. They do not produce a constant stream oft phones and don’t have a department of development that is big enough to take in and test every idea; even less producing prototypes for testing.
Things they take up now, most likely will not hit the market within the next month, maybe even year; depending on the complicity and the amount oft other tasks, they do work in at the same time.
So, my approach is, that I don’t expect the same of Fairphone as I would of other manufacturers, since I assume, that their work flow is quite different. Just due to company size and staffing.
Short guess: You are not working in the software development area do you? If you want a stable product, you never take the newest, fanciest, most hyped whatever product. Example: If you want a real stable Linux, you take e.g. Debian because the software base is NOT the latest, but well tested because it has settled to a certain point (different story with security patches, yes). This is even more true for a smartphone OS because the hardware basis is much more diverse than for conventional PCs.
Look at all the topics with all kinds of issues popping up in this forum after they released Android 10 for the FP3. These guys at G00gle are experts in software development, still there are tons of issue now with the FP3. Are you really convinced it is a good idea to release Android 11 in maybe half a year? I don’t think so.
Also, from my point of view doing everything “speedy” is naturally the exact opposite of doing it in a sustainable way in most cases. If you do it speedy, you release a new device every year. That’s exactly what we need … not.
Doing everything fast is one of the (many) illnesses we have these days in the first world.
I agree with most of what you say, @Snafu, but let’s not pretend it’s Google’s responsibility for Fairphone Android issues.
It would be great to know “when” they come.
But given the bad (or even inexistant) communication on the part of Fairphone it seems indeed to be astrology.
False priorities, given by the Marketing?
Instead of creating this useless Marketing-driven “My Fairphone” app (at least it can be disabled) they would better provide a bug-reporting app… a simple form which will send the info and include the latest logs too.
@pcm Maybe that was a little unclear, I didn’t want to blame G00gle - well, not this time at least. The point is just: Although you can take all kinds of precautions with a software and test it really (and I mean reeeeally) well, it will never work completely without defects because that’s the nature of software.
I often get the impression that nowadays most people think that developing software is somehow a trivial thing and it should be a piece of cake to release new and perfectly working stuff every other day, because hey - everyone can download a JDK and create a fancy Android app, so where’s the problem?
I understand the frustration when things are not working as expected, but let’s be a little patient and give them the time they need to fix the problems.
Well we totally agree then! Absolutely, these kinds of issues are inevitable. That said, we’re still owed the fixes eventually!
Have you suggested the bug tracker functionality to FP? Subdomain or no, FP staff don’t regularly interact with this forum. Please send them an email.
As for knowing when updates come: the problem is that Fairphone are a small company, and it’s difficult to set deadlines for these things as the dev team is small and problems pop up unexpectedly. FP are walking a fine line - when the public gets the slightest whiff of delay or error, articles and comments begin appearing about how they’re omens of the imminent death of Fairphone. So it’s better to play these things close to the chest until a definitive release date can be set.
The unexpected problems found in numerous posts on the forum
Why not study computer science with focus on software development and then help improving things?
Good idea, already done that ^^
Or they could use GitHub as tool which would work too.
Or directly use GitLab.
They have (had) a bugtacker for the FP2, I don’t think this is a problem of the tooling, they just don’t care.
Perhaps there’s a middle ground between (perhaps rightly) frustrated forum posts and a support ticket. Could/should FP use UserVoice to collate feedback?: