Why i think Fairphone OS should drop root and pre-install Google Apps

[DonAlfredo]

Considering to purchase the next Fairphone, I’m somewhat disappointed to learn that the Google Apps will be preinstalled.

My question is: Will it be possible to remove them?

[Stefan]

Please read some posts here in this thread, your question has been answered above:

@keesj

we will not “add” root in the shipped and supported installations). For the alternative image (without gapps) we will be able to be more flexible and listen to what the community wants.

You can also use the “summarize” feature above to only view the most important posts.

[HackAR]

[quote=“DonAlfredo, post:198, topic:5582”]
My question is: Will it be possible to remove them?
[/quote]TL;DR: No. But there might be an alternative OS provided without Google Apps, without support. You’ll need to install it yourself.

[starfury]

Well, I’m a little bit late, but I totally second that!
Fairphone should provide an as stable as possible OS for the “normal” users, which are surely the majority.
And for those who want to “hack” or customize their phone, it should be as easy as possible.

There’s only one thing I would want to ponder about:
As I know several people who are absolutely not tech-savvy but have quite some distrust in Google, there should be an easy way even for “normal” users to choose between Android with or without “Google Apps”…

[ben]

@starfury

As I know several people who are absolutely not tech-savvy but have quite some distrust in Google, there should be an easy way even for “normal” users to choose between Android with or without “Google Apps”…

I hope they will be able to integrate that in the Fairphone Updater. But that might also be something the community could provide?

[HackAR]

[quote=“starfury, post:201, topic:5582”]
And for those who want to “hack” or customize their phone
[/quote]Well, I guess we’re down to the point, where when you can only use your phone is the normal state. And if you want some control over what’s going on, it’s hacking.

Apple was a death blow to privacy… And people are happy with it.

[starfury]

Sorry, @HackAR, no we’re not. That’s why I used those quotation marks ( " ).
I meant those who want to wield more control over their device than the “common” users, which I guess make up 95 to 99 % of Fairphone or other Smartphone owners.

Please hold back on your agressive fundamentalistic attitude. This should be a reasonable discussion. You’re not helping it.

[HackAR]

[quote=“starfury, post:204, topic:5582”]Please hold back on your agressive fundamentalistic attitude.[/quote]Actually it’s more like a depression. Watching all those people running naked, 'cause they don’t have anything to hide, makes me feel bad.[quote=“starfury, post:204, topic:5582”]This should be a reasonable discussion.[/quote]Tried that. Won’t happen. Just read this and other topics.

[DonAlfredo]

@keesj

or FP2 we will provide different flavours of Fairphone OS(and certainly one without gapps).

That sounds nice, but unless it’s definitely assured in the specifications, I’m not going to spend 529 EUR on a vague hope.

[starfury]

@HackAR

But there are quite a few issues FP team can detect by trying to reproduce the issue on an unmodified and rooted phone on their own. If this test shows no issues, then it’s reasonable to assume the source is in the modifications. But not before that.

1. I guess you’ve never done a job that includes supporting humans with their (IT-related) problems.
2. If you altered your device in a way that is not supported by the manufacturer, it’s your obligation to prove the problem is not caused by your modification.
3. The Fairphone team is small. So is their support team. They simply do not have the man-power to reproduce any random problem. They have to stick to standardized ways of support.

[starfury]

I know it’s a late reply, but @Aline I think, you’re absolutely right (but I guess not the way you ment it):

@Aline

I tend to think people that buy a Fairphone are not the average Android user, but are already aware of subjects as fair trade, environment but also data privacy.

Except for the very last part of your statement. The message of the Fairphone even appealed to people, that never had a owned a smartphone before they bought the fairphone. I saw lots of such owner asking for support in the old fairphone forum (zendesk). So, I assume, there are quite a number of FP owners out there that have never even thought about privacy or security issues regarding their phone when they got one.

[HackAR]

1. Wrong. I supported Windows installations. There is everyone root.
2. It’s like if Microsoft would tell you “You’ve got LibreOffice installed? Sry, that’s not supported. Please prove your issue is not caused by LibreOffice.”
3. No one expects them to solve all issues. I certainly don’t.

@HackAR

Again: you sell hardware and should support anything related. Also, you license the OS and you should support anything related to your modifications of Android and keep the Android base updated. Anything beyond that is a welcomed addition, but optional. And the users should understand that they cannot expect support from FP for things FP is not responsible for. And I don’t understand why you try to fulfill these ridiculous expectations.

[starfury]

1. My question was not aiming towards ‘root’, it was targeting at the amount of (often self-inflicted) problems that people carry to support teams and expect them to solve those problems instantly.
2. No. It’s like “You’ve have a custom firewall installed? Then please remove that, and try to access the internet again.”
3. Your statements here often read otherwise. Take, as an example, your statement I quoted in my above comment.

[HackAR]

1. Regarding my windows support cases, for the most part, people were assuming they were the cause of the problems, while there weren’t.
2. +3. You seems to think OS as a ‘part of the device’ not to be touched at all. Installing any app is an alteration of the device. Saving personal data is an alteration of the device.
   For me, using XPosed and a Firewall is an integer part of the OS experience. As is the alteration of the OS to my needs.
   If I use a firewall, I don’t expect FP Team to support connection problems. But I do expect them to support anything else not related to the choice of my Apps.

[starfury]

@HackAR

But I do expect them to support anything else not related to the choice of my Apps.

And, as keesj stated, they will support you if the problem remains reproducable with the default OS installation, e.g. problems with sensors or other hardware components.

[HackAR]

[quote=“starfury, post:212, topic:5582”]
And, as keesj stated, they will support you if the problem remains reproducable with the default OS installation, e.g. problems with sensors or other hardware components.
[/quote]I must’ve missed that. Where did he say that?

[starfury]

@HackAR

I must’ve missed that. Where did he say that?

here, back in April, in a reply to you:

@keesj

… if you call customer support that your devices is not working we will ask you to test this on the official unmodified build(s).

[fai8753]

@starfury

So, I assume, there are quite a number of FP owners out there that have never even thought about privacy or security issues regarding their phone when they got one.

And they shouldn’t have to. That’s the whole point of this discussion. It should be harder to give up your privacy than to obtain it. I wrote it before: opt in > opt out

[HackAR]

[quote=“starfury, post:214, topic:5582”]
here, back in April, in a reply to you:

… if you call customer support that your devices is not working we will ask you to test this on the official unmodified build(s).
[/quote]It’s not the same. Wiping the device and installing a fresh OS is the last resort, right before sending the phone to the repair center. And the rooted OS remains unsupported in every way.

(Imagine Microsoft telling you “To verify your problem, we need you to wipe your PC and reinstall Windows”)

[starfury]

I was merely talking about hardware-problems:

@starfury

And, as keesj stated, they will support you if the problem remains reproducable with the default OS installation, e.g. problems with sensors or other hardware components.

And therefor your M$ comparison would only be fitting if M$ would sell it’s own hardware with Windows preinstalled and you install your favourite Linux-flavour on it and then experience problems, e.g. with WiFi-reception or bluetooth connections.