Is Microsoft trying to force thousands of good computers to the trash, going straight against the original Fairphone campagne

It’s a little bit off from the Fairphone theme. or maybe it isn’t, Fairphone was a awareness campagne before starting making phones.

As most of us know, Microsoft is posting on so much pleases as possible that in oktober 2025 they gonna abandoned Window 10, wat meant only stoping updating it.

nothing special or strange there.

but with the successor window 11:

Wat is interesting that Microsoft decided to not sepot computers from a bit higher adge.

(trying to point mainly on the one’s how can run windows 11 whiteout problems well Microsoft is telling they can’t.)

is this pure a marketing stunt to sell more and more, to make more profit.

or is there still some understanding possible for this.

Is there something wat we can do, stopping thousands good working computers ending op as garbage.
We we a know that is wat happening now. and don’t need explaining wat the environmental impact will be.

i think this video explained it right:

I’m very curious about the opinions here:

Well, Fairphone is not supporting FP1 or FP2 anymore, the FP2 was released about the same time as the last computers not supporting Windows 11 officially.

And there are ways to install Windows 11 even on not officially supported computers anyway. So yes, it’s always good to use working hardware instead of dumping it, but there is a point, where it doesn’t make sense anymore to support old, unsafe hardware.

And without online connection, youcan still use Windows 7 or even XP for retro games or old industrial programs.

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What to say?
Windows 11 abandons some old stuff, major OS upgrades tend to do that. A point is being made about new technical requirements for improved security. The supported CPU list for Windows 11 is not gathering a huge fan base in the internet.
But in the end these technicalities don’t really matter from my point of view, as there’s a bigger question to answer at the core of the problem.

Microsoft already asked you (as users in general, I don’t mean anybody personally) once whether you really wanted to (or had to) continue using Windows at the support end of the much respected Windows 7 (respect inside the Windows world, that is).

You are still using Windows?
Ok, now Microsoft is asking you again whether you really want to (or have to) continue using Windows with the switch from Windows 10 to 11 and the accompanying hardware cut.

To petition or beg them to soften the hardware requirements is missing the point for me, it’s just kicking the can down the road until something like this happens again.
Just answer the question earnestly to base decisions on this: Do you really want to (or have to) continue using Windows?

No? Fine, there are alternatives. Use one of them.

Yes? Fine, then meet the requirements. If you are a private Windows user, you are not the boss, Microsoft is, and you are fine with that, you made that choice, everybody knows what Windows is and what it does. (I’m using Windows mostly, by the way, just to clear that up in case it doesn’t show :wink: .)
You want to have more time to make the switch to Windows 11? Also fine, apparently you will be able to buy more time … Microsoft: Support extension for Windows 10 also for private users | heise online. While such plans have existed for a long time at the end of each Windows support cycle for businesses and organisations (and, looking at the price tag, are used in a shocking scope every time, just ask some governments or some local city halls), the supposed plan for private users would be new.

For me the big drama now comes from painting the scary mental picture of PCs ending up in the trash, but it’s up to PC owners to actually put them there or not. Even if you want to get rid of them, of course there are alternatives to the trash heap, and everybody knows this.
I’m not a big fan of over-dramatisation.
It’s up to the users to let this all play out as a big drama, or not.

Effort for change should go into bringing European governments to drop the dependence on Microsoft in their IT and improve digital sovereignty, and more businesses need to get out of the still huge Microsoft lock-in in the business realm. That would be effort more well spent overall, I think.

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On a side note, just before I’ve seen this topic I had read an editorial comment about Apple (while generally good at keeping their hardware supported for a long time) who recently set a negative example by denying the 2019 MacBook Air the possibility to upgrade to the latest OS version (old version as far as I understood gets patches though; still less than 6 years and the latest OS version gets denied).

As for Microsoft, I’m partly affected. On desktop I had made the switch to Linux as main OS back in 2001. But my current laptop is Windows-only ATM (that used to be my main gaming device and 2016 that still meant using mainly Windows for that). My personal decision is clear: I will keep the hardware (there’s nothing wrong about it) but switch to the same Linux distribution I have on my desktop come October 2025.

Before replying I tried to search for a statistic about how long people keep their PCs before buying a new one. But all I saw were articles about regulations for writing off hardware in a commercial context. So I’m stuck with what I know about my own habits (unfortunately doesn’t go back to my first PCs but I’m quite sure I replaced them more often in the early days when there still was huge progress).
My desktop usage: 5 and 8 years (current one is 4.5 years old)
Laptop usage: 4 and 9 years (current one is 8.5 years old)

What I don’t like about the hardware requirements is that Microsoft made exceptions for their own hardware: the Surface Studio 2 has a Core i7-7820HQ which isn’t officially supported but will get Win 11. Well, my laptop’s CPU is the same generation, thank you so much. Not.

So far I don’t know what to make of the new offer to buy extended support for private users. To me it does sound a bit like a trial run if people are willing to go for a subscription model. I mean, Microsoft is a business and I guess they wouldn’t object if people became used to pay a subscription for their OS like they are used to with streaming services.

And finally like AnotherElk mentioned, it might be a good moment to consider the lock-in effect for government bodies (but also private companies).

P.S.: I’m not so worried that unsupported PCs will directly go to trash in October (a scenario which indeed seems a bit exaggerated to me), as some will probably just keep using Win 10 (without OS patches) or make the switch to maybe Linux. To be honest, my guess is more people would run an insecure Win 10 than taking the plunge to install Linux.
But even if people give their old PC a second life (e.g. retro gaming station without internet access), donate it to charity (i.e. passing on the upgrade dilemma to others), or just tuck it away in the attic before deciding what to do with it in the end, as soon as they are “forced” to buy a new one, to me that is not such a big difference to going to the trash (which could mean getting properly recycled) because new resources need to be consumed for no good reason.

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Does a machine that exclusively uses IPv4 hiding behind a NAT incur the same risk of malicious code being executed versus a machine that is always accessible from the internet either via IPv6 or direct bonding to an IPv4 address? I don’t know which is why I’m asking. I would think there’s still a risk, but less? If I used my PC for commerce or anything sensitive, I’d certainly feel blackmailed into upgrading to 11 because the extended support will probably cost an arm and a leg and will end in 2028 anyway.

There’s a lot of justifiable gripes with the compatibility of Windose 11, and it will cost companies who need to replace all their kit a great deal of money. A cost that will be passed down to the consumer. The UK health service has already been held to ransom when M$ ended support for XP, looks like this is scheduled for an action replay in 2028! It’s all very well having to upgrade systems that have become obsolete, but Win 11 by design won’t work on fairly modern kit. I’m living in hope that the EU will have some positive input in the future.

PC technology has moved on very quickly as I found out last year when I assembled my first PC in 12 years (named Mantrid). Almost everything I knew from before had become obsolete. Scary really. My old faithful 15 year old PC (named Kai) has been been on a slow downward spiral for around 2-3 years with various motherboard related hardware issues. Until then I was still running Windows 7 full time.

I installed Debian 12 bookworm on Mantrid because I want rid of windows, but as I’m not quite ready to completely say goodbye yet (as there are several Windows programs I want to keep), I installed Virtualbox and run Windows 7 as a virtual machine and start it when required.

I can see why home users are reluctant to say goodbye to windows, there’s a lot about Linux that isn’t as good or easy as doze. However, governments and business really ought to say we’ve paid enough now. Back to the UK health service topic, it surely must be cheaper long term for the government to employ a team of developers to build custom packages using a non propriety Linux framework? No extortionate license fees, just a few more on the payroll. I’ve little hope of them doing so as the UK government can’t even run its own water nor national lottery in house. Both our main political parties would rather franchise out or sell off, that way it’s not their fault when things go wrong.

There is something worse than Windows though : Android! A major release every year ensures phones become outdated very quickly. Then there’s the chipsets and unsupported kernels!

I love technology, but do feel that we are backing ourselves into a corner. If the technology fails, you won’t even be able to get cash out of a hole in the wall. Sorry, I didn’t mean to sound this gloomy. I’ll stop now.

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You guys just believe in corporate speak. If I can still use windows 98 and 7 today. Then why wouldn’t it make sense to do so. Heck I’m currently using it to update my media files via media player with correct information. It doesn’t make sense to me just to create e-waste when there are perfectly functioning computers still in the wild. While modern Windows players don’t update these files anymore. Windows 7’s media player still has its uses. For one you can sync files to a mp3 player and such. Second it uses bing to get album artwork instead of servers that are commonly used today. So if one has a lot of CD music. Its very handy if down the line something happens. You can always go back and get it again.

As for windows 98. Being a DOS system has its advantages also. There is support for midi audio files that modern systems don’t support anymore along with BMP picture format from this time period. Plus if one has the fancy to host their own website. Microsoft netpage 98 you can create your own website without a subscription. The program still happens to work on modern windows without issue. So have a flashdrive to transfer the site data over to a modern system gives all the advanced security of today. https://explainingcomputers.com/
did this very thing for its website.

Windows 98 also had a great game library that still hasn’t come to newer platforms.

So in short. There is still use-cases for older Platforms each with its ups and downs for each. This is where i disagree with all comments other than the original poster. If you disagree. Its just my opinion from real life experience. Its just yet another way to rake on all that cold hard cash by buying new and throwing away the old. Who else remembers Microsoft office 2007 actually still being good years later despite Microsoft wanting a monthly fee for the newer version. Its just a simple word processor. Typewriters are still being used today by authors. Just because its old doesn’t mean its obsolete in any form. This is all my opinion in the end.

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Of course, nobody said something different. But only offline, not for the dayly online things most people would use it. That’s not believing in ‚corporate speak‘ as you called it in your ever so aggressive way, but for safety reasons. For your own and the safety of other people that might be attacked by an infected computer.

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Yes, I am really angry about M$.
My laptop is from 2019 and still works very well. Probably as many other hardware.
It is an ecological catastrophe to force so many still working hardware to move to trash.
I know all the history of M$ from old DOS times, the company is really evil.
Privately I use Linux (the wonderful OS/2 was destroyed by M$ as many other concurrent software by dirty tricks), but sadly for job reasons I am forced to use M$ Windows, and to avoid recorery claims it must be supported.
No, Microsoft is evil, so evil that I hope that one day this mother of all bad software, which become great only by destroying better concurrents by dirty tricks, that this company will disappear. It will be a big feast in the IT world!

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Agreed completely. Besides most of their software is DRM today where most other platforms they’d created actually still better in many ways.

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I would disagree with you about security as most ATMs still run XP today. Its because of the limited RAM that its become harder to hack over time. Still the lack of security updates does mean to be careful when surfing the web. Even if its not my daily driver. I do go to websites like Lagacy update to keep my platforms updated. If the government still uses these years later. There must be a reason for it. So I do still disagree with your statement. It was an honest opinion.

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@TW8punk, IPV4 versus IPV6 isn’t a security consideration. Any malware worth its salt can bypass a NAT. Where IPV4 remains in usage, their presence is more common than not. Why do you ask about that, specifically?

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@Digimon, whether the kernel is DOS or NT is irrelevant to something as high-level as MIDI format support in a media player. That doesn’t make any sense. I can play that stuff easily in VLC and FFMPEG. Additionally, Bing uses “servers”. Theirs are in no way fundamentally different to any alternative.

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18 posts were split to a new topic: Technical requirements of playing MIDI files today

Not really. Microsoft downloaded Windows 10 on user machines with Windows 7 on it without asking and then tried to trick the user to upgrade (with the GWX icon/KB3035583). More about can be found here and here. The ‘automatic update’-function was basically used as a backdoor. Windows 10 and 11 are spyware and malware disguised as an operating system. Part of this has to do also with the fact that the malware sold by Microsoft is proprietary. Therefore it puts Microsoft in a position of (abuse of) power over it’s users.

No, not everyone knows this. I have a background in technical support and did work at a major manufacturer of computers, phones and tablets. In my work I spoke to many users/consumers that were convinced that if they didn’t upgrade to a new operating system or a newer version of it, their device would immeditaley stop functioning at the moment the ‘end of support’ date was reached. Also, many, if not most, consumers lack the knowledge on how to install an alternative operating system. That is, of course, if they do know that alternatives exist (and many don’t). Many people will discard their good functioning hardware and will buy a new device with a newer pre-installed version of Windows.

And don’t forget Chrome OS. Google’s software is also malware. The problem is that many online services require Google Authenticator nowadays and that many schools use Chromebooks.

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The reason ATMs still run Windows XP doesn’t have anything to do with RAM, but the system they have developed. And I’m prettty sure that it is Windows XP Embedded, that were made for these things.

ATMs doesn’t have access to the internet, but to a closed, secured network where they only have limited access to the systems they need. In other words, they are offline.

Part of my job has been maintaining systems like this.

I’ve come across a lot of fun in the past with customers having outdated systems. Good luck :-). I’d rather recommend you Linux Mint, by the way.

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Man what does it take to make people understand tech and ignore corporate speak.
Get back online with this program.

And for older systems with limitations to access the web.

A update to the antivirus program using modern definitions and your golden. In layman’s terms.

Look all I’m trying to say is there are workarounds for limited hardware. Why create unnecessary e-waste when a perfectly functional system is still there. You can do word processing and other tasks. This is why i still have my systems from years prior. The original poster is still right. I still use these platforms for random tasks like the aforementioned getting album artwork, playing classic games, looking up all those documents from school l, etc. A Normal Person can understand that.

Two if a game theory says they can still be hacked remotely (ATM) watch{Underscore}dogs episode from long ago I believe matt pat.

ATM timestamp of 10:30 in video.

I know full well it isn’t perfect by any means. But Michael MJD did an amazing video on how to get back online here. Using proto web application.

Michael MJD is an amazing source on how to get old hardware working. Still most people today are not fluent in old assembly or DOS programs of yeaster year. I grew up learning in a computer lab at school on win 95 and thus have a decent amount of know how.

Who remembers a technique on how to park/unpark an old hard drive in dos. Because that was a thing. Most of this old information on how to do so isn’t around anymore. Most drives do this automatically today by default.

If you believe in saving the planet. Then is wise to continue to use old hardware even if most people say otherwise and obsolete. Because no matter what you do. There is always going to be people who are going to just buy the shiny new item. All the stuff today is spyware to its fullest. Even if they don’t say so. The older stuff had advantages like everything being offline by default and you didn’t have to connect it to the internet to use it. Plus one for old school.

If the IRS and other government agencies still have computers dating back to the 70’s. Then there is still a reason. Tape reels and whole room systems are still very much in use today. Holding valuable information. Its amazing what you can find on the web about it.

Even if Windows 98 isn’t my daily driver. Its still reliable today as it was brand new. Just having it around reminds me of a much simpler era full of peace from nonsense that is so in our face today. You can even still install all the software on a brand new device today and it would still work being x86 compatible. As long as it isn’t an arm processor being introduced in Windows today that is. Jays two cents did a video doing exactly this. A simple search on youtube gives many examples.

Being brainwashed by corporate speak is just that propaganda. No matter which way you slice it. If an down to earth person can see through it like no tomorrow. Than hopefully other people can see through it also. Just don’t get me started on the headphone jack just had to be removed from modern devices. Because it didn’t have to. It was just another way to sell more dongles that break after so often.

Thanks for the thread

Great opportunity for Linux to gain users and save eWaste pushed By microsoft

What we need right now is a “One clic linux installer” for Windows 7/10

So we started this small project libertix.eu

Code source is here , should be ready in a couple of weeks

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@rokejulianlockhart
Having my Windows 7 machine behind a NAT made me ‘feel’ a little safer. My logic being nothing from the web could jump the NAT to probe the PCs ports looking to exploit vulnerabilities. You’ve cast doubt in my mind now. Can a non secure outbound connexion be hijacked and turn inwards? If malware is already present in the machine, then its game over anyway unless it is relying on a security hole that’s already been closed. My “safer behind a NAT” conclusion was solely based on my feelings, not fact, so that is why I posed the question. Mind you, I’ve been told that facts are now ‘Woke’ and should be disregarded at all cost :wink:

As far as I can tell, unless you have a means to disguise your machines IPv6 address, anything on the web can probe it. That’s why I compared IPv4 and IPv6. Here’s another question. When support ends for any M$ OS, the Antivirus companies will continue to support that OS, and so will browsers for a number of years. Is that enough protection for a cautious user?

@Digimon @Svampe

  1. I must have a play with the Debianised version of Mint.

  2. I have seen XP on an ATM screen continually rebooting and I thought it funny, but thinking more, XP is a very stable OS so it does makes sense to use it. An even older OS still in use is Windows 3.11 (for workgroups). Siemens of Germany built Desiro trains in the early 2000s. They use it for their on-train fault computers. I wonder if there’s anything still using DOS 6.22 or earlier?

Yup! Guess that makes me old! A BBC Micro HDD add-on used the ST506 interface and you needed to park the heads manually by typing *BYE while ADFS was active. You just mounted the drive to unpark it. The XT PC also used this type of drive. I still have the BBC drive. It takes up two 5.25 bays and only stored 30MB! That was tons of storage for a machine with 32k of memory.

Yuk to the thought Chrome OS. :face_vomiting: Launcher full of targetted adverts by any chance?

It was reported a few weeks ago a school in Chester was closed due to a ransomware attack. This meant they couldn’t use ‘Google Schools’. I’d not heard of that before, but that school has obviously done away with books.

Back to the proper OT topic
I’m pretty sure the majority personal consumers will not throw away their kit just because M$ 11 sticks its nose up at their hardware. They’ll most likely keep doing what they’ve always done and use their kit until it becomes unusable. Even then, will they all replace it? Phones do most things a PC can do now. I think business operations will be more likely to act due to liabilities / cost to business should they be attacked.

If I thought it would help, I would encourage the EU attempt to compel large tech companies like M$ to provide say 10 years of updates from the date of purchase. This regardless of how many versions of their OS they release in that time. In all honesty, I can’t see that going anywhere with the new US administration. The tech bros do look very cosy in Mar-a-Lago don’t they. E-waste is probably fake news now and any country who says it isn’t will have a 60% tariff imposed.

Maybe an alternate method could be to encourage the use of Linux instead? Subsidies towards training to help small companies cope with the transition? It could help ease the pain of detoxing from their 30 year M$ dependency?

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@TW8punk, you do actually have a point there! I wouldn’t call those “feelings” - that’s fairly well-reasoned, to an extent. However, you’ve unfortunately gone for the security by obscurity route. I wouldn’t rely upon your router protecting you from a probe, and if you’re not feeling confident about your firewall, that’s generally rationale enough to start improving things.

I do realize that if you’re stuck with old networking hardware, you’ll only get so far, though (unless you’re one of those OpenWRT madmen). However, using Windows 7 (on, I presume, bare metal) in this day and age is asking for trouble. What prevents you virtualising it from a low-overhead Linux OS? A lack of available system resources?

…I don’t really know what to say to that.

Google Classroom, I presume, is what you refer to. It’s an online conferencing, task management, and document distribution platform. I’d be surprised if they’d done away with books, considering that they’d have inherited the library infrastructure to store them at no cost, for exactly that kind of situation. It was probably closed because school administration is almost entirely digital now, due to increased record requirements alongside budget reductions rendering backup physical document storage infeasible.

I implore you to attempt to modify a spreadsheet on your smartphone. It’d teach a toddler the importance of ergonomic software design. There are common, vital, functions which a touch-input device, and especially smartphones, are unable to efficiently perform irrespective of internal hardware improvements.

I implore you to sign the undermentioned:

Status: Available to supporters 
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@Michel_Memeteau, I don’t see its purpose:

Anaconda, as one example of many, already provides a very simple installation experience that also supports comparatively advanced, yet utterly necessary, functionality, like partition management, when necessary. In your example screenshots, how would the user choose which drive to install to? I don’t see any option to do so.

Irrespective, it’s certainly not “one-click”, for that’s infeasible if you’re to provide useful functionality, like choosing a username and theme (after choosing a DE).

Choosing a device name, username, and theme alongside myriad alternative important preferences is expected to constitute the OOBE. If it wasn’t, Apple wouldn’t do it, and we’re not about to say that, overall, their user-base is technically competent, are we?