Genode / Sculpt operating system

Discuss The Industry
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One of the most attractive things about the Fairphone, particularly with /e/OS, is that it is a largely European enterprise, or certainly free from US and Chinese clouds. However it is still largely driven by Android underpinnings.

Google had for a while been working on a replacement to Android they termed Fuchsia. It would incorporate lots of innovations that are exciting to those who follow operating system design such as microkernel and capability based security. The idea was that it would underpin the usual Android apps and services with a more modern system.

Here in Europe there is a similar project that commercialises research from Dresden University called Genode. It is already made to run quite successfully on the Pinephone. This includes a graphical means of shaping your own environment by granting capabilities to each app (this distro is called “Sculpt” for that reason); the advantage this would offer to those using untrusted apps from an app store are self evident.

What do we feel are the prospects of Genode / Sculpt being the underpinning of a future version of /e/OS, or even as a unique Fairphone operating system? The technology itself works well as those who acquaint themselves with the PC version, such as I have done, can testify. Even if the benefits were hard to quantify, and I have already identified one in this post, the idea of an entirely native European operating system (rather than “de-googled” android) appeals to me.

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Update: there is an interesting discussion about Sculpt on the /e/ forum, and another on the Genode forum itself.

Interestingly, Genode’s aspiration include porting Android ART (the virtual machine that runs the apps - essentially like Java) so that all our apps could run on that. It would be even more unique if it were coupled with their own interface ideas!

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Hi squizzler,
you certainly pose some interesting questions here.
Of course some sense of European sovereignty into the firmware/software aspect of our phones is a desirable thing on its face.
However the state of European tech leaves still very much to be desired. You mentioned /e/OS, and the Genode project, after a cursory search, still appears to be some sort of philosophical/coding experiment.
Indeed, no sane person would say : let’s just upend all smartphone way of thinking and we’ll be successful.

Android and the state it’s in, is born of a complicated process between manufacturers, open source developers, and of course Google.
It’s rather mature, even though it’s evolving (maybe more and more in the hands of Google…). Replacing it with something from scratch is virtually impossible technically, economically, and from a graphic design perspective.
Replacing Android with Fuchsia was never, i think, anyone’s goal. As far as i can see, fuchsia seems to be the microOS for Google Nest devices and not much else. And, its maturity aside, it would be a poor choice if our goal was to free ourselves from Google indeed.

Our best bet is still based on LOS. It’s a community-based, largely open source project. it’s familiar and stable. Compatibility wise it’s still workable. From a business perspective it’s a good bet.

To replace that with something newer because it’s “more modern” doesn’t make much sense to me at this stage. Even if a microkernel is a good idea from a privacy perspective, Genode has a long road ahead still, and maybe it’ll lead nowhere! it’s an academic endeavour after all.

We need more tech companies if we wanted to have a real alternative. With a business plan. Sorry for the cold reception.

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I don’t take issue with your reception, but fasten your seatbelt because I’m coming out swinging!

Your response is blinded by complacency on several topics that underpin your conclusion. Europe may not be an established player now, but the received wisdom a generation ago was that China was good for assembling electronics, designed elsewhere, but not the place for R&D, and certainly would not be able to establish an brand that consumers would prefer. Europe seems to be accelerating its industrial strategy - after years of half-assed efforts - due to the global political situation. As for what your suggest to be the invulnerability of Android’s position, I note that Blackberry knew back then that people would not want an all-touchscreen in preference to a physical keyboard. As for Fuchsia, I believe there were greater hopes for it, and as you point out it does successfully power a range of HomeHub, but further roll-out fell victim to Google mass lay-offs a couple of years ago.

As for Genode, your implication that it is little more than an overgrown dissertation is a diss that needs a response. It has been in development for about 20 years, full time, with a business founded to develop and market it. It is arguably a much better prospect than Fuchsia, because it is not run by an indifferent business like Google who might axe its development on a whim. I challenge you to download the PC Sculpt image and give it a spin (unless you are lucky enough to have a Pinephone and load that image) and let us know how you get along. You might decide to keep it as your daily driver desktop!

I acknowledge that Android would be very hard to displace, but that is not what I am suggesting. Genode would simply be an additional choice, and who doesn’t want that? And with the Android virtual machine ported, Android Apps could be run - unmodified - on Sculpt. Because Genode is an “OS Framework”, the option exists to built a custom underpinning to Android that replaces the Linux kernel with a microkernel and associated system components, This would be invisible to users, whilst giving a solid foundation for future evolution.

Perhaps someone will see fit to send Genode labs a stud of Fairphone 5 for development purposes!

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Hi squizzler, thanks for your answer and thoughts

Not quite. I think the effort to industrialize is still half-assed, the only change being that the political situation is more dire than previous. The tech boom in the US was underwritten by a whole Venture Capital industry that just doesn’t exist as such here, that took advantage of low-to-zero interest rates that are not feasible anymore.
We need capital, favourable policies, and a lot of tech/entrepreneurial culture.
You seem to be underestimating the political, economic, financial, product design and graphic design aspects of a whole industry, focusing only on a specific, technical issue, that may or may not be vital in the grand scheme of things, that is kernel architecture for a consumer product.

Indeed the best products are not the most modern, efficient, or powerful, or the cheapest, but the ones that can capture the public, create a demand for it, and can become part of the culture it’s in.

There is a use-case for fringe, avant-garde, highly different OSes and OS frameworks. Consumer electronics is not it. And you cannot hope it can, however hard you might believe in Genode as a product.

As I see it, the last 20 years until five years ago roughly, were a time of great advances in the mobile phone industry. It was a whole terra incognita, new products, new materials, new software, new manufacturing processes, new possibilities, new dreams every year. The last five, however, is largely an iterative refinement process, consolidation of what we have. A thinner bezel. A larger camera. But not the revolution from the iPhone 2 to the iPhone 3G (the ability to take video’s!) or the whole new form factor of the iconic iPhone 5, or big.LITTLE architecture.
Am I saying that no new exciting thing will come out of the industry ? No, I don’t have my finger on the pulse of everything. It’s just that the product you’re rooting for is not, in my view, going to break into the world as an Android did, or OLED screen, or OnePlus, and more.

I will not fall for a new flashy thing just because it’s new (by the way, you seem to contradict yourself when you say that it’s modern and then say that it’s been worked on for 20 years) or different.

Having seen the video, it’s thought-provoking, that it is. Maybe I will try to VM and test it someday. Daily driver? Not so much. Plus, it’s for PC. The smartphone usage is very different, I’d like to see a showcase with a phone (imagine using bash for every little thing… it would make you want to go back to BB’s keyboards).

I’m very content with LOS on my Fairphone. What OS are you using on yours?

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So goes the story. In fact the innovations were from academia and public funded research, often conducted by researchers from abroad. Which the US is keen to hollow out on all fronts. The story is different in China of course, they no doubt have a different way to pick what gets adopted.

I know, such has been the case since Brunel’s broad gauge lost out to Stephenson’s in the 1840s.

I am unsure why not. In fact you seem to contradict this by a long lament that the pace of innovation has largely stopped (presumably as diminishing returns kick in). I feel that you are just flexing your industry savvy credentials. :muscle: But having told me you can’t buck the industry herd, why are you running an alternative phone and OS?

Please do give it a go! I do draw your attention to a Pinephone port already existing: see the last link in my second post, which the quoted text seems unaware of.

As for the 20 year gestation of Genode, that is the long pathway from academic blue-sky research to a product. And it has not finished: the next move will be to dump XML for the configuration scripts in favour of their own markup. These big changes are still possible for as long as they have a modest installed base whose users who are happy to be on the bleeding edge.

Sadly my recent Fairphone 5 order was not processed, due to the meltdown in customer service, and I had no option but to cancel. I decided to lick my wounds over the summer and see if a revised version is launched for Autumn. In fact I am still on iPhone, having been an apple user since the powerPC era (polycarbonate G4). And a jolly good time it was too. But now the writing is on the wall that it is time to reduce reliance on US mega-corps and intend to get a Murena powered Fairphone.

I’d argue the cloud service is as important now as the actual OS for user experience. Do you have access to that with Lineage (if I understood LOS to be)? I am coming to Android as a newbie.

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You will notice that I specifically referred to underwriting, that is risk-taking in financing or insuring a business venture, and not creating or developing any product or software, which I agree can involve grad students and researchers in universities.

I recognize your enthusiasm for the project and what is would mean to you. Indeed, you very well may be an early adopter, in the sense of the risk-taking, novelty-seeking user that loves the new product and can bear the growing pains of its maturing process. Still, there’s a chasm to cross to get mainstream adoption.
However, I am more careful. It’s no lament, there’s no question if I am bucking the system ; it’s just analysis, from a product design and development perspective. Because, yeah, we’re talking about a commoditized product, we can’t be holier-than-thou tech purists with everyone.
That’s my whole point : now, no new change of behaviour is expected of mainstream smartphone users, and the barrier to entry is now greater because the market is crowded.

Yes, we only have few options and it’s one of the best ; although the best phone is still the one you already have :wink:

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