Partially agreed.
I would say: Let them take that stand, once the public will recognize there is someone standing.
Right now taking that stand would most likely mean to sacrifice the impact they can have on the hardware market. Is this worth the risk? It sounds a bit like “He had way of right” on a tombstone. Sometimes the powe lies in the ability to compromise and not to bite off more than one can swallow. (That’s it for witty remarks. 
)
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@gcrl I think there is a misunderstanding about my question, probably because of my limited English skills. @virtualnobi did not answer my question but perfectly described my motivation. 
Because I don’t like Google (and neither Apple) I still have no smartphone. From time to time I look around to see if the situation has improved. The release of FP3 is such an occasion to check if there is a way to give up my refusal of smartphones. This is why I would like to better understand some topics. One thing that I don’t really understand is the difference between different “ungoogled” systems: FP Open OS, LineageOS, /e/, Shift OS-L - are these in essence all the same, with the difference only on what phone they are running and what Android version they are based on? Or are some more google-free than others?
That was the background of my original question - sort of a better understanding what “ungoogling” does.
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@mgfp My apologies for misunderstanding your question. I think your quest(ion) is a noble one - you have certainly gained my respect for not owning a smartphone! Purism with their Librem 5 might interest you, too, besides the projects that you already mentioned. Otherwise, I think @madbilly is more capable of answering your questions than I, if they don’t mind taking the time to post another message.
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Or maybe you are stubborn. Can we please stop insulting people or suggesting they are stupid just because they make different choices in their life? Thank you!
Of course they will. Maybe as successful als Firefox OS/Boot to Gecko? Or Ubuntu Phone? Or MeeGo? Or Sailfish? (Irony off)
I hope Fairphone will support Lineage and that the FP3 will work even better on Lineage then the FP2 did. I think it is great that they are considering to offer a Google free choice. That won’t be for me. I like using the Play Store, I enjoy the peace of mind and choice it offers to me. And I am sick of getting told how everyone choosing to use a Google powered smartphone is just stupid. It’s ignorant at best and it will not help the cause of free software at all. If the cause of free software is to be taken seriously, at least spell the name of the company correctly: It’s Google, not Goolag, which is a very lame joke, and only funny if you don’t know or realize want a Gulag actually is.
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On a modern OS, you need some kind of package manager with repositories. Sideloading everything, is not doable.
There are basically 3 ways to run Android (or their forks, well technically they are AOSP forks but whatever).
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GApps, OpenGApps, Google Play Services, or whatever you want to call it. The conventional, official way. The way Google wants you to run their OS.
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F-Droid side-loaded, allowing you access to F-Droid repositories.
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microG installed, an open source implementation of OpenGApps (sans the advertising part) allowing you (anonymous/pseudonomous) access to Google Play and all kind of other Google services. E.g. GCM which allows for push messages via Google Cloud, or UnifiedNlp allows you to use different backends for GPS assistance, etc. You don’t have to use the Google Play Store if you got microG installed. You can enable and disable all kind of its services.
You can combine the above, except you cannot stack #1 with #3 (so you can combine #2 with #1 or #3). You can download microG from F-Droid, but there are also Android forks which have it by default such as /e/ and LineageOS + microG.
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Edit: TL/DR I think that @JeroenH gave a better explanation! 
Please excuse me as well if I’ve misunderstood the question. Also, I realise I’ve probably come across as a bit of a “know-it-all”. When I think I know something that may be of interest to others I tend to say it and sometimes this can come across as arrogant, so please excuse me if that’s the case. Even if I think I know something I’m very happy to learn that I’m wrong and have someone correct me, so if that’s the case with anything I’ve written in this thread then please explain it to me!
About FP Open OS, LineageOS, /e/, Shift OS-L etc. Apart from /e/ these are all pretty similar, as far as I can tell. I didn’t manage to find much info on Shift OS-L and others here are much more knowledgeable about FP Open OS so I hope someone will correct me if I get my facts wrong here.
FP Open OS and Shift OS-L are similar, they are both Android without the Google Apps or Google Play Services (GPS). Unfortunately many apps require Google Play Services, so without this these OSes have reduced functionality vs normal Google Android unless GPS or an alternative is installed.
LineageOS is also a flavour of Android without the Google Apps, but it has been customised a lot and offers lots of configuration possibilities. It still needs GPS or an alternative to be full featured.
With all three of the above the Google Play Services and Google Apps can be installed afterwards. Or an alternative, one of which is MicroG which aims to replace all of the services from GPS with open-source versions which don’t communicate at all with Google.
/e/ is based on LineageOS plus MicroG, so it has just as much functionality as normal Google Android but without the GPS communication with Google and with the added configuration possibilities of LineageOS.
Since MicroG can be added to LineageOS, FP Open OS and Shift OS-L (as far as I know) you might think that /e/ is still not significantly different. However, the /e/ team have also removed as much other communication with Google which is inside the rest of Android as they can. There are still some things to fix, but there is still much less communication with Google than any of the other options above.
They also provide their own app store and their own privacy-respecting cloud services (drive, mail, calendar, contacts, notes, tasks and search engine). In this way they replace all the other Google things which people normally depend on as well, which to date has probably been the main reason that people have almost always failed to go completely Google free.
There is a “product description” on the /e/ wiki here that gives more details: https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/wiki/en/wikis/e-product-description-pro-privacy-Android-ROM-and-online-services
If anything’s wrong or not clear please tell me.
Cheers
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Well yes, /e/ is nice, and has an interesting goal, but still, if people install facebook or the like (and be sure to check your apps, they use all kinds of ad networks, and also the infamous FB SDK), you may be less visible on google, but the rest of the world knows all about you.
Just for the record. I did a MITM check, and I found lots of otherwise respectable apps (or so I thought …) combining Google AdId and some unique ID they set while installing. So, even on /e/ and similar, if you use those apps, you’re visible as hell for everybody wanting to track you.
Use ad blockers, firewalls, and everything you can, if you’re tech savvy enough, but most of the people are not able to do this.
And if Fairphone says 95% users use a standard installation (maybe also because they are not tech enough to use a banking app while rooted, and this will still get more difficult with PSD2 in Europe), that leaves about 7500 users that are using FPOOS or LOS… Not a loss for google.
I’m also quite critical, but you simply can’t escape, you just can minimize your exposure…
(And I really want to talk to some of those clowns who block banking apps because you’re rooted, but still allow KitKat…)
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Hi @ben !
I am quite sorry to learn that you get sick so easily. My apologies. But at the same time, I am glad that you go for peace of mind - surely, this will help you feel better soon!
Yes, I may definitely be stubborn at times, but at least I actually do know rather well what I am talking about when discussing free and open software, and you are just wrong if you think that I am ignorant - when I don’t know (enough about) something, I won’t hesitate to admit it; and then I start studying the matter and learn from others.
(What strikes me most, is that your frustration radiates throughout your reply to me, and I suspect that this emotion originates from your illusion of choice, which is, if you really want to go philosophical, sort of a choice, too. Sure. Hey, just an assumption of mine, so not to be considered very important for the subject of this forum, and don’t allow it to make you feel worse, please. I am unworthy of such an honour. 
)
In any case, we don’t have to become friends, and I guess we have discovered that we differ in our opinions - that’s alright and I do respect those who actually have thought before they come up with theirs. You know, most people just blindly follow the companies who have most power and money, plus the ones who are most similar to themselves, and these people fail to convince me of, or impress me with their deep, independent and intelligent thinking - feel absolutely free to think of this as you wish. However, I don’t think I mentioned the word stupid at all, and I am certain that I didn’t use it in conjunction with you, as I wasn’t even aware of your existence until now - don’t take things personally, unless I speak to you directly, I beg you.
Lastly, I don’t mean Goolag as a joke at all. That would be very bad, indeed. Truth is that the comparison is all too realistic, unfortunately. So, Goolag it will be. Sorry that you have to read my opinion on it once more, but I don’t mean anything personal, as I said.
Make Leaks & Love. Peace, man! 
Tbh; for not being personal, you are quite sarcastic with regard to someone elses opinion.
That, of course, is just my opinion/perception of your posting.
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Hi @iklaus, you’re right, in the end it’s still the privacy nightmare that is Android! 
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Yes, I am guilty of sarcasm, quite often. Apologies, if that isn’t considered a good trait by some. Still, I would be the last person to want to hurt individuals, unless they ask for it. Strong convictions, stubborn I guess, but also open-minded and definitely willing to learn from mistakes, people with more knowledge and experience, and life in general. I am a compassionate and forgiving human being in the end. Perhaps a bit of an Asperger and a solipsistic person, too. Life isn’t easy in any case - let alone communications! I guess you will have to trust me on that one.
So, all bets on Librem 5 after all…? What a mess we are in, aren’t we…?
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Hi @gcrl,
Since you addressed me directly, let me reply to you. I guess it gets boring to others on the forum pretty soon. First, I did not want to say you insulted me directly, my apologies for not writing more clearly.
This, what you wrote on the topic to install an alternative to Google by default, is an example, for a statement that seems ignorant to me. Using Android with Google Play Services would be the ethically totally wrong choice for customers being stubborn or worse. You even included a roll eyes emoji afterwards. To me, that is ignorant because if one option is totally wrong ethically, that’s not even a choice for many of us here. You seem to not consider different needs, you are not weighting in on pros or cons, you are not considering others might be well educated on the matter of open source on a smartphone and still consider a version with Google Play preferable for themselves.
Maybe learn something about Gulags now. If you still insist that’s comparable to Google using data to serve ads, then we have nothing left to discuss.
We’ll now you did. Let me say one last thing about making assumptions about my peace of mind and if I get easily frustrated or not and if this originates in a illusion of choice. Don’t do that. I feel it’s rude and to personal. You are not entitled to do that unless I ask you for it.
I hope we can learn something from this. To me it is that respect is not only in how you say something but also in what you say.
And just to be sure, if one gets the impression I am arguing against free software smartphone (s): I am not,
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I have often wondered about this remark. I run FPOOS, but I also run a few (really, few a few) official apps whose services cost money. I downloaded them with the Google account on my old phone (or, since Google doesn’t offer them considering my old phone too old, I ask somebody with a new phone to download on my behalf), extracted the APK, copied to my FP2 and installed there. Voila, I can buy train tickets with the German DB Navigator. Sometimes, I get a nervous pop-up saying “Hey, there’s no Google on this phone”, but these pop-ups have an “Ok” button, and the process continues.
As I said, I use only few such apps, but can somebody explain which apps or which features I would potentially loose by unGoogling in this way?
Danke & Grüße von
nobi
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Would be nice if you can publish the list - for others (not so tech-savy like me) to avoid these apps; or at least be warned.
Danke & Grüße von
nobi
Yes. No worries.
@JeroenH, @madbilly Thanks for the detailed explanations, very much appreciated 
Unfortunately, I still have a lot of 
in my mind
- “Sideloading” - is that downloading and installing manually? Like what a Windows user does, who, for example, downloads and installs Irfanview? As opposed to a Linux distribution where (almost) everything comes from the repository? If so - why not doable? Sure, I prefer repos too, but downloading, installing and updating a few apps from time to time should be doable?
Anyhow - F-Droid seems to be an solution for that problem, if I understand correctly?
-
microG - from what @JeroenH says I got the impression that microG still access Google services, @madbilly writes about versions which don’t communicate at all with Google. This leaves me with the question: does MicroG only replace local components on the smartphone, or does it also provide its own servers? (If the latter - how do they finance that?)
-
The really bad news is what @madbilly writes about /e/ - “much less communication with Google”. So even if I use a “Google-free” system like FP Open OS, and even if I omit MicroG, there is still communication with Google?
Together with what @lklaus says, this probably means that I should stay with my refusal of smartphones … 
Waiting for Librem 5 is an option, but there I miss the approach to fair and sustainable hardware; and if I still have no access to (Android) apps, why would I need a smartphone?
Depends on your needs. If you got away without it up to now, this might work longer, sure. But as I can see you’re using the internet anyway… If you’re not throwing away cookies at the end of every session, use a hardened browser ("canvas identification ") and use tor, your moves are tracked anyway. You can only minimize exposure (disable every Google " feature "), use ad blockers, firewalls, (netguard comes to my mind, no root required) and on the desktop noscript, EFF tools and canvas blocker. You’ll be surprised how much faster it can go, and more so how much breaks, as tracking often is built in in the functionality (web sites or app modules the like)
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About a few remaining Google traces in open OSes, see here: Living without Google 2.0 - A Google free FP2
It’s about the wifi connectivity check and DNS.
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Hi @mgfp,
- Yes that’s side loading. Unfortunately Android APKs don’t normally check for their own updates, they expect an app store to do it.
- Yes @jeroenh is right there is still some communication with Google, but you can’t be tracked as easily, if I understand it correctly. MicroG does not provide it’s own servers. More details here: https://microg.org/
- If you really want no Google at all and still use Android then I think the “best” option is a Kindle fire tablet… But then you’re being tracked by Amazon instead! Or an Android smartphone from China (not just made in China, but bought in China) as they don’t have Google tracking in them as far as I know… But then you’re being tracked by China! Therefore maybe lineageOS is a better option, but I actually think they are much closer aligned to Google than they tell us.
The Librem 5 will have plenty of apps and services, but it won’t run Android ones. It’s possible someone could port PureOS for the Librem 5 to the FP3. But I think a better bet would be Ubuntu Touch or Sailfish OS for a non Android OS. UT definitely doesn’t have Google tracking but is community run, so no guarantees about stability. Sailfish OS should be much more stable but support needs an agreement between it’s maker Jolla and Fairphone. The latter can also run Android apps if you want.
Cheers
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