I have had discussions about this question multiple times and interestingly most frequently with @AustrianFairphoners, which is why I thought this forum might be the right place to discuss this.
My opinion was always that itās a question of definition: If you define a vegan product as a plant-based product, then honey is definitely not vegan - if you define a vegan product as something where no animals were killed, exploited or harmed - or bred to a degree that is harmful to the eco-system - then honey can be vegan if the beekeepers treat the animals right. Though until recently I had no real vision of what treating bees right would look like or an idea how horrible bees are treated otherwise.
Iām currently reading a German book about ecological beekeeping. In it the authors basically say that the horrible way bees are treated is a result of capitalism and the beekeepers dependence on selling lots of honey. Bee-hives are kept from multiplying naturally through swarming, but are instead split manually by the beekeepers and then get a laboratory-bred and artificially-inseminated queen. This and many other unnatural practices ensure maximum honey production.
The authors then propagate that instead of paying beekeepers for the honey-production of the bee-hives they should be payed for the main benefit of the bees: pollination.
That would ensure that a beekeepersā main priorities would be the wellbeing of the bees and the preservation of biodiversity.
Even in ecological beekeeping there is a lot of human influence on the bee hive. But one could argue that it is more of a cooperation with mutual benefits than exploitation - just like there is between the bees and the flowers.
For example the beekeeper provides the hive with an ideal home and visits them regularly to check their health. The bees in turn produce honey, wax and propolis and the beekeeper only takes as much as the hive can spare or as is even beneficial to the hive. For example by taking away wax the bee hive is forced to renew the honeycombs from newly produced wax, which doesnāt contain any toxins and waste products that has already accumulated in the old wax.
So personally Iād consider ecological bee-products to be vegan. Reading the mentioned book even awakened the desire to become an ecological beekeeper myself - even though Iām not even sure I like honey.
FĆ¼r mich ist Honig nicht vegan, da die Bienen den Honig fĆ¼r den Winter brauchen.
AuĆerdem finde ich es nicht ok, daĆ ihnen Zuckerwasser oƤ dafĆ¼r gegeben wird ā¦ Es ist Ausnutzung.
Filmempfehlung āMore than honeyā
Itās defintely not vegan. A vegan product is a non-animal product and honey is an animal product. Regardless if the animals are well treated or the harm to nature is little. Just because an animal product is ecological, or no exploitation to animals, doesnāt make it vegan by defintion.
Nonetheless, what you regard to be okay for your own ethics is something else. I also heard the discussion, if you are vegan and adopt hens and they lay eggs. Do you throw them away or eat them if no cock is there to fertilize? I think this comes down to subjective preferences but it doesnāt make the product vegan.
At the end of the day, honey is stolen surplus labour; but then, domesticated honey bees produce far more honey than they need to survive winter, and in most cases theyād quickly die off without human care.
It depends on how you view veganism - as an orthodox set of consumption options, or a moral preference, or a way to signal society that nature-friendly consumption options are desirable. Iād say that there is such a thing as vegan-friendly honey; this past year, here in Leiden, Iāve helped harvest about 300 kilos of some of the most vegan- and bee-friendly honey youāre likely to come across. These are some happy, healthy bees who live in a massive botanical garden thatās also full of wild bee species. For some of my vegan friends, itās the only honey theyāll eat - though others still wonāt touch it.
That having been said, Iām less interested in whether something can be classified as āveganā than I am in finding out the actual impact an action or product has. Fairphones arenāt entirely āfairā so people still got hurt because of their production, so in that sense everyone here who owns an FP would have done better if theyād gotten a second hand phone. Of course we didnāt, and it could be argued that the message weāre sending by buying a fairer phone, and the fact that weāre going to make these phones last longer, compensate for the suffering it took to produce them - but itās a complicated calculus for sure.
Which leads into the idea of consumption activism versus top-down systemic changes. Iām a communist so I think change should come from down here rather than up there, but the current system is rigged against bottom-up change so for now (considering the urgency of these matters) Iād rather see governments take actions. For instance, the Dutch government banning disposable plastics is a tiny step in the right direction - punish those polluting companies and make them come up with better solutions rather than forcing consumers to make more ecological but more expensive choices.
This is giving me cravings, Iām making tea and I will be adding some of that good botanical gardens honey.
Yes, well I know that by an official definition honey canāt be vegan and I chose my question to be a bit provocative on purpose. A more accurate question would have been: Can honey be animal-friendly? or Would vegans eat animal-friendly honey?
To me it comes down to why you are a vegan. I became vegan a few years ago solely because of the environmental- and climate impact of (most) animal products. The concern about animal suffering came later.
So with my reason for being vegan good honey wouldnāt be a problem.
I do however also understand the impulse not to use any animal products at all.
I do agree with @robbert.f that the western honey bees have basically forgotten how to live by themselves after hundreds of years of capitalist bee-keeping. I think bee-friendly bee keeping could in the long run teach them to become a little more independent again.
Also you donāt have to feed the bees with sugar water. The beekeepers who wrote the book Iām reading say that feeding bees is only an emergency measure. You should only take surplus and if they ever do have too little you can feed them with their own honey from better times.
The comparison with the hens that lay unfertilized eggs is interesting. I donāt like eggs, but in that situation I wouldnāt have moral objections to eating the eggs. Though as a vegan I wouldnāt come across the idea of having hens in the first place, even if I could provide them with a animal friendly home. Bees on the other hand are a benefit to the local ecosystem.
I understand what you mean paula. I think this comes down to a subjective opinion. Wheather as a vegan, who choses not to consume animal product for environmental reason, would consume a product of animal that is of no use to the animal and of no harm to the animal but the animals are beneficial to the environment.
My answer would come down to necessity. For a human being it is not necessary to consume animal products in any way. No matter if itās food, clothes and so on.
The context of the thought experiment, with the hens, was that you save them from getting slaughtered, keep and treat them well like pets. Eat the eggs or throw them away? More of a moral thought experiment than taste. I guess if you donāt like it you wonāt eat it, no matter if itās moral
Iām neither vegetarian nor vegan, but I have some problems with some of your arguments there. For human beings itās absolutely necessary to eat meat, our heritage comes from omnivores, thatās also the reason why we have sharp-ish canine teeth. Iām not saying itās totally unhealthy to eat vegan since Iām absolutely no diet expert, but you have to acknowledge that not consuming animal products takes away a large portion of the diet that evolution has designed us for, so one has to to be very concious about what to eat to not miss out on certain substances that arenāt commonly found in plants.
Secondly, Iād argue itās stupid to throw the eggs away if you have hens. Throwing them away doesnāt change anything for the hen (eggs are gone either way), plus you just wasted perfectly fine food, and I think no one wants to do that, wether vegan or not.
Eating meat was necessary, or rather it was one of the things that made us what we are now. But evolution is a process. Whatās necessary at one point isnāt necessary any longer later. At a time we needed tails to move from tree to tree.
Actual dietary experts will tell you that average meat-eating humans have more dietary illnesses than vegans.
I am sure that this is true, but youāre comparing apples and oranges. The average meat-eater doesnāt really care about her diet at all, so she also eats tons of sweets and McDonalds crap and so on, while the average vegan is much more concerned about her diet, so she generally eats healthier.
The comparison has to be made with a vegan and a ānormal personā who both care about their diets.
(Full disclaimer: reducetarian, former vegetarian and vegan.)
As a reducetarian I agree with the argument of @Stanzi that it is a waste to throw away perfectly edible food because of an -ism. I donāt agree with the first point; we can evolve away from what we have been. It is now possible to add B12 fermenting in plant-based food (e.g. chickpea) to gain a similar dose of B12 as from meat.
As for honey being vegan? My definition of vegan is about animal harm (because else you end up hurting plants and mushrooms). Bees are insects; insects donāt have a CNS; therefore, bees themselves are vegan.
More important, does it matter? If you follow strict defintion in-vitro meat is also not vegan, as the stem cell is from an animal. If you want to focus on reducing animal harm, there are much better battles to be fought. However the ideal of reducing animal harm is regularly at odds with the ideal of reducing environmental footprint.
We tried to culture our garden with flowers which attract bees. Two problems: we could no longer have the window open or theyād fly inside, and two our neighbor is allergic to the flowers. So we removed them. However a project like this allows you to give back to nature with a tiny gesture. It is a small amount of effort to improve your local ecosystem.
How should I know, Iām happy with my food as long as itās as organic as possible and not from Nestle or other disgusting companies.
But Iām sure that you can find lots of information from various standpoints on the internet.
I just watched More than Honey, the documentary that @EvaS recommended. It really very well explains everything that is wrong with capitalist beekeeping.
Just in case anyone watches it and thinks that what the old Swizz guy is doing is ecological bee-keeping: Far from it! He is breeding performance-sub-species and kills the queen if she mated with a drone from a different species. And he uses chemicals, so his bee-keeping is not even organic.
Even in ecological beekeeping there are different sets of practices. There are different organizations that give out certifications according to different rules. In the book Iām reading they are commending the Demeter certification in Germany as a very good one. But even the authors of the book sometimes do things or use things that I hope I wonāt have to if I really become a beekeeper. E.g. Iād like to refrain from using a smoker.
I know, but randomly using antibiotics and pesticides isnāt good either. Iām not trying to falsify your argument, itās just whatever you do, it will always have a negative impact in some way.
