What do you think of Fairphone's approach to open source on the FP2?

So, what do I think of the new blog entry?

Somehow I was afraid this would happen. I guess it boils down to this:

So, do I trust FP enough to ‘risk’ my 500+ Euros? My problem is that I don’t have the technical knowledge to make a more or less precise assessment of the possibility to run an alternative OS. ‘Somehow’ I have the feeling ‘the open source community’ is interested, but not very committed to the porting project. The commitment of Fairphone at least seems convincing. But do they have enough technical expertise and power to push this project themselves, if need be? I don’t know…

I would love to be part of the first batch of supporters, but since there are still some days to go, I guess I’ll wait with my decision until after the weekend. Maybe some news comes from the London conference?

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Android was designed as a system that gets built in one go so about 512 projects get compiled and linked together. The components for witch we don’t have the source code are the usual suspects (graphics/wifi chip etc). What we will release is pretty much a verbatim codeaurora.org based android bases system with the added support for the Fairphone 2 hardware, our additions to the system and the needed binaries to make the system fully functional. In practice over the last months we where able to do develop and improve Fairphone OS using this exact system.

But things are not a simple at is seems. Some components that are released as open source have dependencies on closed source components (wpa_supplicant is such an example) and while building that component from source is possible it will not work on the system (because of missing dependencies). XDA developers will know what I am talking about. Anyway we developed a solution that worked quite well for us over the last month and that does allow us to generate a new set of blobs when needed. We have to take it forward from there. No manpower nor money will solve this issue (only open hardware might).

You will have to wait a little and see for yourself. Best would be to join the party and ask questions, be critical and if at all possible in a positive way.

One thing that is clear to me at this point is that no company will have the resources (money/people) to perform 5 major Android upgrades to existing hardware. We will have to follow a different path for longevity.

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Hi, thanks for long and kind answer and for taking the time! It’s pretty late here, so just very brief:

I’m not that critical, I just need more information. I also think about how you deal with/select the OEMs/mines and how do you do the audits – and why there is not so much info about that on the blog :smile:. I don’t have a trust issue, I just want to know.

Back to the blobs: I was hoping for something like the Qualcomm Atheros AR9170 or ath10k for the wifi because they have open drivers but maybe do not come with a SoC. Same for the graphics, I had hopes on freedreno.

But all that is understandable. I assume the same will be true for the modem … and all that will be in one or two chips anyway and these will be pretty well locked up. That’s okay, as long as we know.

I wonder why. The APIs do not change that much, it’s the blobs that still make it impossible, or do I misunderstand how this all works? (Maybe CPU power, but most of the time it’s overkill). I don’t really like the whole android ecosystem … judging from the little bit I’ve read on xda the last years.

Anyway, Sony is much worse, they provide a bit … but often not the modem blobs … so people have a nice little neatly updated computer, but not a phone or a camera any longer.

Limitations
As usual, you should be aware of that this software is not intended for daily use as there are important limitations. For example, the camera is not working and the modem is not enabled, which means you cannot take photos or make phone calls.
http://developer.sonymobile.com/2014/11/13/android-5-0-xperia-z3-aosp-source-code-and-binaries-now-available/

Once again, thanks for your reply and have a good night.

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Hi, I think this is good news.
For those who own a FP1 the company is trying to find a solution to upgrade to a new version of Android.
For FP2, android 5.1 wil be there and supported even to new versions.

And for the free softwares addicts, the community will have somme tools to get in touch with the hardware and modify and compile some alternative Os.

Général users are not obliged to follow this thread. Usual grumbler are not obliged to post every two days that they are against something and grumbling a little more.
Thanks to the team for the work in progress.
I’m looking forwards to new developpements

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@keesj Just out of interest, is it this https://www.codeaurora.org/xwiki/bin/QAEP/ project you are talking about?

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Because Android Kernel development is a huge mess. Have a look at a link previously shared by @Bombadil: Obstacles to contribution in embedded Linux

A quote:

The problem, Tim said, is not small. A typical system-on-chip (SoC) requires 1-2 million lines of out-of-tree code to function. Keeping that code separate obviously hurts the kernel, but it is also painful for the companies involved. There is a real cost to carrying that much out-of-tree code. Sony (where Tim works), for example, was managing 1,800 patches for each phone release — and that was just kernel code.

With every new Android version all these patches have to be ported. If big Companies are struggling with this, it’s quite unrealistic to expect a small company like Fairphone to do this.

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I agree and I read the link a while ago. This is why I think “open hardware” is important as well. I think in a few more years from now, you will end up defining “hardware” in software all the way. Most SoC are already developed like this, if I understand this correctly. They just contain a big load of “IP” that is bought and sold between the big players and later gets etched onto the chip after some testing.

I just want to have the fairphone as open and as fair possible. If currently more is not possible I understand that, but at least I want people to try and to understand why more was not possible. This doesn’t mean the whole project is a failure.

Just dealing with one OEM without any more information makes me feel that I’m not part of a movement, I’m just a customer getting sold the next update. I thought a bit more openness would be possible (graphics, wifi) see above.

But “buy or just shut up” is not my way. I always believed this forum was for arguments and discussion. But most of the time there is just not enough info to understand the “why’s and the because’s”. Maybe after the London meeting, I don’t know. I’m not only here to help others understanding Android basics, I also want to be able to understand the projects decisions. And comment on them/discuss them here.

I don’t. If it is an open driver all the deps should be around. So what is the problem? Could you post a link to xda?

I would like to discuss things like this in greater detail and not get told ‘to shut up’ indirectly by others that don’t bring in any arguments and more or less just bully. If we do not discuss OEM selections, mining or source issues/experiences here, than, I agree, this project is not for me any longer.

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I think this is awesome news.

Yes, this is still incomplete information, but it is a step in the direction hinted at before. Together with the promise to try to maintain FP1 updates, this at least shows that Fairphone is trying hard.

Kudos and good luck on the journey.

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This is a very good comment. To extend it, let me quote a comment from liliputing.com on the advantages of Sailfish OS over Android:

(Source: Jolla Tablet with Sailfish OS is finally shipping - Liliputing )

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What I also miss: will the FP2 stick to Android 5.x, although Android 6.0 will be out in a few weeks?

I completely agree. I’d rather feel I can trust what I read in the Fariphone blog, than have to spend ages second guessing what each statement means. Although:

I couldn’t find any statement that anything above 5.1 will be supported on FP2, can someone point me in the right direction?

Regarding updates, this something to keep in mind when considering expectations (and this is from someone involved in FP development):

This is why I would be very positively surprised to see a new version of Android for FP1 (given that two of the apps that I was using are no longer compatible with Android 4.2), but rather expect that the developments for FP1 are important for keeping security patches coming, which is also important for longevity.

For me, the availability of the source code makes it seem more likely that the a project will be supported more long term, which is why I have (a perhaps irrational) notion that open source also fits in with the environmental goals of the Fairphone project. It also means that if the device is popular enough to attract a developer network, there is a chance of community updates even if Fairphone stopped trading for whatever reason or decides to focus their attention elsewhere. On the more practical side I agree with the sentiment of Ben in the OP - this is a good balance between those that want something straight-forward, and those that want to take a different route. For now, it’s patiently waiting to see what materialises over the next months.

Keep up the good work!

Side note:

This isn’t helpful to the discussion and potentially discourages people from contributing or taking an interest. Please don’t make such statements, but stick to comments that can move the discussion forward or encourage others.

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Nobody knows that yet. You can look at other, big manufacturers and you will hardly find a statement in that regard. I doubt Fairphone will be able to an announcement in that regard before we see the first devices with the chipset getting Android 6.0 – which can be well into 2016 if the updates to 5.0 are any indication. That said, the Snapdragon 801 is a quite popular platform sold in many popular devices like the Sony Z3 range, some HTC One devices, the (old) new Moto X and the Galaxy S5 – for example (See this list). So chances are Qualcomm will prodive and update Android base for the 801 on Marshmellow (6.0). But even IF that happens, Fairphone will still have to adapt that to the possibly unique device specs of the FP2. Given this complexity and that they were unable to keep up with some promises in that regard on the FP1, it would be ridiculous and not fair to the customers to make such claims that early.

Reading the blog and the forum quite often, i am pretty sure they are dedicated to bring major Android updates to the FP2. But if they will be able to and how long that takes, is simple to early to ask.

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Hi here,

we are at mid of november and still no update about the release of the source code of the Fairphone OS (or at least for the AOSP). Please, for me is very important to have a system “google free” before start to using it, so maybe @Douwe could tell us when this code will be released? I hope not after the delivery of the phone

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Hadn’t they mentioned that they will provide a ROM without Google (I always imagined it to be similar to the updater of FP1 in which every user can pick Fairphone OS or AOSP). Does anyone remember where that information is from?

The code and how to build documentation will be publicly available before the first phones are shipped.

We plan to release before end of the month. We are currently working on documentation and feedback channels.

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When the sources are available I’ll order the FP2.

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When Sailfish OS will be available I’ll trade my FP1 for a FP2.
Honestly, I feel any other talk around open source just looks like blah blah.
And given the state of Jolla (makers of Sailfish) at this moment, they are in dire need of help, a help that just declaring Fairphone allows them doing all the porting (and no support) is not bringing at all.
But who knows. Maybe they survive after all, without help, like by miracle. While here we continue belonging to Google.

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For those of you following this topic for source announcements, see also the topic here, or http://code.fairphone.com/.

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A post was merged into an existing topic: Financial problems for Jolla ltd