Yep, we would have to come up with an emoji shortcode like
lang_eu. The tags could be simply the ISO codes.
Yep, we would have to come up with an emoji shortcode like
The current solution with the flags is ok for me, but I also understand the reasons against it.
So for an alternative solution I would prefer something that is easy to understand for someone who is new to the forum.
The name of the language as tag would be fine IMO, but it should be written in the language it represents (so that it is easy to find your language even if you don’t speak English), e.g.
I would prefer the name of the language over the ISO code, because it is easier to understand.
Personally I don’t have any issues with using (regional) flags as language symbol, but maybe I’m not representative.
My main criteria for marking threads in certain languages:
- They should be easily to spot (visually), that’s one argument for a symbol or a short character combination (like ISO language codes in brackets, e.g. [EN] as beginning of the title.
- All marked threads should be marked consistently, so they can be filtered or sorted automatically.
- The language tag therefore needs to be consistent, which is probably no problem for English posts; but for all others quite probably multiple forms could come up (e.g. “Spanish” and “Español” or “German”, “Deutsch” or “deutsch”).
- Users (especially new or sporadic ones) should be able to enter the tag easily; from that pov the best option might again be the ISO code (so easier / better than a flag).
TL;DR: I vote to either continue using flags or 2-digit ISO language codes.
First of all, thank you all for your positive attitude, diverse opinions and constructive ideas. I absolutely love the spirit of this community,
Secondly, s are Mexican , not Spanish ! But again (this is serious, I promise), stereotypes are more commonly linked to regional cultures than to languages.
I also consider the visual “feature” of flags a negative UI design — they attract my attention between other equally-important content or topics (in titles, not so much in tags). So I’d consider it a controversial feature.
On the contrary, the option of ISO icons proposed by @Stefan is different because it’s monochrome, like letters. They would assemble and icons. They are region neutral, visual (although it doesn’t catch your attention badly like colorful emojis) and compact. But they can’t be used in tags.
A nice option for tags could be then using localized names for languages, as @_Chris proposed and Wikimedia uses. Wikimedia is an organization known for its multicultural efforts and positive attitude to diversity. But I’ll probably add a
lang: prefix, as in #lang:español, or #lang:dutch or, #lang:euskara, which fit with #dic entries (e.g. #dic:floss) format and make the format mutually coherent, IMO.
This option has a plus too, because with a single CSS rule (
a[href^="/tags/lang:"]) the style can be customized for e.g. to change the color of the lang tags or underline them at once.
TL;DR: My preference will be using ISO icons as title prefixes and “#lang:language” as a tags:
(:lang_en:) This is a topic title written in English
lang:english, those, words, are, tags
(:lang_es:) Este es el título de un hilo escrito en español
lang:español, estas, palabras, son, etiquetas
Well I think that is a premise, but:
Without tags you can’t automatically filter topics. And if we use the brackets in the topic title again you can’t even search for topics of a certain language anymore. And even if you include the brackets in the search terms (so it’s 4 “letters”) searching for “[IT]” will still yield no results because the word it is filtered as a common term.
Well for tags the Capitalization won’t be a problem. If a tag exists called “Deutsch” than “deutsch” will automatically be corrected.
This is indeed a downside of the flag tags the way they are now. My preferred solution for this is using language name or iso code in combination with the flag. “Italian ” or “IT ”. If such a tag exists you’ll only have to enter “it” and it will be suggested.
The current combined use of tags and flags in the topic title is due to the fact that some devices don’t render the flag-tags and I’d consider it an ugly workaround.
Only using tags would be preferable to me as tags can be bulk-changed easily, while topic titles have to be changed manually one by one if you want to change the system (e.g. if discourse introduces ISO icons themselves).
Do you think it could be possible to offer different styles that every user can change in their settings page?
So you could actually choose that lang:english is replaced by whatever option you prefer from the list above? (english, en, , cheers, , …)?
PS: Actually I found a workaround which works really well: FoxReplace. I’m guessing there are similar addons for other browsers. With this everybody can replace lang:language with whatever they want, be it a combination of letters a symbol or even a blank space so you don’t see language tags at all.
I tested it with tags in the Playground.
PPS: I think since this is the most flexible solution we might not need the poll after all if we get a majority for this right away.
Do you agree with changing the language tags to lang:language (so e.g. lang:italian, lang:english, lang:german) which everyone can change to look however they want with browser addons like FoxReplace?
- Yes, this is great!
- No, I prefer another option.
- I’m not convinced yet. Let’s discuss further.
I would still prefer the localized name of the language (lang:deutsch) or the ISO code (lang:DE) instead of lang:german.
What would be the default display for those who do not install the add-on? Just the code?
You could change that too.
Well yes. lang:language is a string of letters that doesn’t come up randomly, so you won’t accidentally replace something else. If e.g. the default would just be the language, then if someone talked about french fries that would be replaced too.
PS: Whether we use lang:German or lang:Deutsch as the standard we can vote on afterwards still.
What I meant is: someone who is new to the forum should see something which is easy to recognize.
The advantage of using “lang:language” is that it is easy to adjust the visual appearance.
But the question is: what will be shown as default to the user?
I guess using the localized name of the language makes most sense.
Thanks to all of you for the good discussion, but a special thanks to @paulakreuzer for all the time you take to find a good solution to something that is already working on the forum! It is nice of you to take this discussion in consideration even if it means more work!
To offer that as a preference, the Discourse engine has to be modded (not ideal, adds complexity for updating). The advantage of the CSS rule above is that it can be applied just like any other forum style and it can be used to add a visual style to language tags that will make them outstand visually a little (e.g. all language tags in blue). That way we won’t lose the visual feature of flags,
I think it would be perfect if in addition the “lang:” part of the tag could be hidden from view so that only the language (e.g. “Español”) is visible. But I guess this cannot be done with a simple CSS rule?
I really have no idea what solution is causing what problems for programmers.
I just think, that an easy solution would be the best.
Important in my opininon is that the information is given and that it’s easy to see.
Furthermore I would prefer a solution, that is free of biases and possible misunderstanding; so I would rule out flags as well as tiny symbols, especially representing clichés.
For me the concept posted by @Stefan does the trick. It’s simple (in a good way), it is easy to understand for everyone and the symbols stand out enough to present the information at first sight. Visibility might even be enhanced by choosing a bright color for them like bright blue (red or green migt be less visible for people with a red-green colour blindness).
I would not “waste” energy on programming something that is meant to just give some important basic information in such a complex way, that users can choose between various options, unless that’s easy done and will not result in trouble when doing updates to the forum.
But I don’t have to do the programming.
One last thought: Is it really desirable, to offer users the possibiity to choose an option being clicheéd and representing prejudices, that might alienate or hurt other users. At least the moment they are choosing their preferred setting, everyone will be confronted by those clichéd options.
TBH I really don’t get the problem with symbols.
Symbols are used a lot in this world. Especially in places where people speaking different languages come together and all should know what is what.
And they are almost never really representative of everyone they stand for.
The most commonly used symbol for a woman’s restroom is a person wearing a skirt - but many women never wear them.
The symbol for a wet road is a car swirling around leaving impossible skid-marks, although the most common danger posed by a wet road is a prolonged deceleration distance - also the sign is not only supposed to warn car drivers.
I could go on. I don’t think any sign is inclusive to everybody, but they ate used because you get the same info at one glance that otherwize you’d need a word or text in 500+ languages.
I don’t get the critique of using nation-flags for languages if all nations using the same language are at peace and don’t suppress each other.
It would be different if the flag for english was the confederate flag or the flag for german was the nazi flag.
Ok the short poll was clear that this option doesn’t have a majority behind it yet. I changed my mind about it too. What I liked was the flexibility, but tbh the combination of language name + flag (which I prefer) gives the same flexibility.
Some people would argue that this is not the case for some seperatist movements around Europe. They want to be nations and their language is part of their identity. We Austrians might not fully be able to grasp the situation @Roboe mentioned above (although there are minority languages in Austria):
The list of languages of the European Union can give us an idea of the language diversity. If we want to account for all of these languages, the symbols with the two-letter ISO code are still the most neutral option, IMO.
Yeah but do we really want to use that many languages on the forum?
Even the United Nations only use 6 official languages. The more languages we use the more the knowledge gathered in this forum will be scattered, the longer it will take for people to receive help and the more falsehoods will probably be uttered before someone debunks them (like “use rice to dry your phone”).
I think our main goal here should be to find a way to mark threads of different languages that works for as many languages as are needed and is clear and recognizable at first glance. And of course we shouldn’t actively discriminate by doing so - which I don’t see happening.
But it’s also one of the most impractical, because you can’t use them as tags.
If such emojis would exist I agree this might be the best solution until then I think we should find a solution that only needs tags and nothing in the topic title. That way we can switch to ISO-emojis fast once they are introduced.
Paula, even the women’s skirt symbol got some criticism:
Icons are linguistically a cultural relation between signifiers and meaning, but just for that they can’t guarantee that they have always the same meaning, specially for a global public, multicultural and with diverse thinking.
And, by the way, nations are not states: Spanish Constution states that Spains is a multination state, for example. And that’s good.
P.S.: I’ll stay three days almost without Internet, so please excuse my silence in that timeframe.