Not sure what you are referring to, beta tester get the new version normally not even 1 week before its published.
Else SW development is outsourced since the FP3 while the FP3 was taken back inhouse when the FP2 support had to be stopped. While outsourcing surely isnt perfect I guess to hire developer directly for all devices is too/more expensive
Thatâs quite a wild guess. Sure if you do contracting with underage modern work slaves, you might actually safe some bucks but other than that, letting others (i.e. skilled professionals) do your work will always cost you more in the end. Iâm not even talking about digital sovereignty here. Clearly something Fairphone does not pursue at all.
Reasons for outsourcing critical expertise are rather being able to get rid of annoying âresourcesâ (i.e. human capital) fast whenever you like and getting rid of responsibilites that come with it.
Iâll never understand how smaller companies or free-time volunteer communities are capable of doing a much better job than Fairphone when it comes to developing software.
And nobody says they have to do it alone. Why not join forces with Shiftphone, Volla and Morena (better)..
Which companies or projects are you speaking of? Do you have examples?
I have the impression, that most people ranting here about software quality, do not have the slightest idea about development and complexity.
Smartphones are one of the most complex devices a company can produce. SoCs have close to none compatibiliaty, drivers are closed source, cameras are so bad that you need a magic software wand to get decent quality, the OS is a bloated pile of rubbish, which gets uglier every year, network providers mingle in with their own quirks and hardware setups⌠everything is so horrible, I cannot grasp how a single phone can work.
Which companies or projects are you speaking of? Do you have examples?
I would guess he means the LineageOS project and the FP6 port which is mainly done by @ArianK16a in his free time and have a lot less bugs then the stock Android.
I have the impression, that most people ranting here about software quality, do not have the slightest idea about development and complexity.
That may be your impression, but at least for myself, thatâs not true. I work as professional software developer for years now and have experience with outsourced software development on both sides as well. Thatâs why I know itâs crucial to manage external software developers (in this case T2Mobile) as the software quality may drop dramatically otherwise (e.g. ugly, quick hacks which will create bugs later on instead of clean solutions as itâs cheaper - for the moment).
And yes, as it is that complex, itâs not enough to control the whole development process from T2Mobile with one skilled developer in the management role alone. IMHO.
Yes I know, I also have a record like yours, but I also know that regardless how things are done:
And that is why I want people to step back, look at the complexity and understand that the real world is not made by Disney.
LineageOS
Murena
volla
Purism
pinephone
Shiftphone
GrapheneOS
etc.
.. they all appear to me to be much more capable with way less resources.
My critique is not whether developing software or a mobile OS in particular is complexe. it is (other matters can be much more complex though and are still handled better⌠also completely ignoring the fact that all Fairphone is really doing is providing to merge some given drivers to an already complete vanilla Google OS). but fairphone is not even trying to at least go about that fullhearted either, are they?
what puzzles me the most is how you can outsource the most important 50% (i.e. hardware vs. software) of your main product to a complete unknown. even more so, the more issues are piling up⌠I just really donât see any trace of ambition here. none. they donât seem to care at all about software. thatâs what gets me ranting. how dare they talking about sustainability and all that but outsourcing all of it to some randome people thousands of miles away who I presume couldnât care less about all the things I feel are an extremely significant part of fairness as well. incl. digital sovereignty.
I really do appreciate youâre contra. i do. clearly someone also has to speak up for Fairphone too. but then again thatâs the problem. I would much more love to get contra or any reaction really from technically skilled Fairphone people (i.e. mainly hardware/software developers) directly, but there arenât any, are there? (except for a small hand full, overworked)
And believe it or not I even want Fairphone to succeed way more than you do. thatâs why Iâm so hard on them and the competition will be even harder the more Fairphone just rests in self-absorption.
also, if you may and no offense, but please spare us the âsoftware is just faulty, always will be and thereâs nothing you can do about itâ.. you know thatâs just first degree denial of the painful truth.
And now look at us⌠arguing.. three full-stack embedded software developers, working decades in the field with industry customers way way more demanding, requiring much more complexe (and ridiculously expensive) QA certification procedures than regular joe and his Google Android phone âŚwho were with Fairphone from day one. Are we not? ([Ed. a teasing joke, not what Iâm saying but how Iâm saying it, in reference to the âonly software professionals are allowed to voice critiqueâ statement. Joking is bad, be gone])
Your list does not convince me, since some of these do not even have to hassle with AOSP and for others I canât guess how many people are working on it. It is all based on assumptions. But I have heard that Shift has also a lot of problems with their software.
How could I believe you, when you go on playing it down directly?
More than me? How can you even think you know about that?
No, I wonât and I tell you why: People have to understand this. All people, not just you and me. There will always be problems and you will never ever have enough tests and procedures to fix every possible issue.
I would not bet on this. Fairphones Android is certificated by Google and I have no insight how complex this is.
And I am also not sure whether Company X is more demanding than Average Joe. Both seem to me quite problematic as cusromers, since most of the time quality is not their biggest concern, unless something happens. And both tend to overestimate their expertise.
It is rather easy, if those projects do not need to fulfill the official certification process of Google. Also they can offer their OSes simply with the remark to use at own risk. Something a manufacturer cannot do.
You can look up yourself how many Google certified releases they had in the last four years for the 6mq (the 2021 model):
Spoiler: its much less then Fairphone
I think they are also trying their best, but they are just very small and itâs very hard to get Google certification
The rest either donât really need google certification or I donât have experience with them
I get that the certification eats up a lot of time. What I donât get is how that means everything else is half broken at best and that submitting a debug report to the customer support is a black hole.
Like, I get that software development is difficult as I am a programmer myself, but some of the bugs are around for literally years without ever being acknowledged officially even if they are reproduceable in 30 seconds. Test keys are used which makes Verified Boot functionally useless, etc. So many rookie mistakes that at the end of the day I think they would have been better off just⌠not outsourcing. Every support request and every returned device by an unsatisfied customer is an expense. A few years ago there was a conspiracy that Fairphone employees arenât using Fairphone devices and I 100% get where that conspiracy came from.
If the phones just worked better, Iâd imagine theyâd be able to cut back on support requests and returns which would upweigh the cost of having programmers that arenât interns. I also donât understand why they went away from keeping the Fairphones largely open source. Creating their own camera app is essentially reinventing the wheel instead of just forking the GrapheneOS camera app or something.
At least theyâve realized that spending some money on a Community Manager was a good idea. Only took them 5 years. Slow but steady!
Is it? Because some people have a problem after an Android update skipping one major release? I guess you can take any other manufacturer who tried something like this and you will see nothing different.
For example I did not have any problem with update itself, only that they did not address the battery consumption topic, but that was already broken before.
And yes, FPâs communication is still rather poor, I mentioned that so often, now, that I did not want to repeat it again. I guess this problem is at least understood and we will see improvements like with the new CM. In our labor market in Europe this will take some time, however.
Not quite my point but thanks for digging that up. Iâm always appreciating to have more facts added to the discussion no matter the side.
More data even:
Shiftphone / 20 employees
Fairphone / 200 employees
(please feel free to challenge those numbers)
Could you also please elaborate more on the âdifficult to get Google certificationâ statement.
Iâm not a (consumer) mobile OS developer myself, so I donât see whatâs so âdifficultâ about trying to get a vanilla Google AOSP certified rather than Google playing the gatekeeper card.
I mean, sure, if youâre not knowing what youâre doing everything becomes difficult.
Where I come from certification procedures are extremely well defined, you adhere to the guidelines and restrictions or you donât. Nothing really difficult about it.
But the overall point remains, why do you think Fairphone is doing a particularly good job here, i.e. debuting the original argument that Fairphone is not.
Not sure why you guys focus so much on the certification process. Personally I would love them to give up spending so much time and money on this Google nonsense. But thatâs just me. I am using uncertified OS/software on my phone, my PC, my telly⌠without any significant issues. I wouldnât want it any other way.
Even more.. of course you could just offer hardware and drivers as a manufactuer as well.. whatever OS your customers install on your productsâŚ.thatâs up to them. Isnât that what Pine64 is doing more or less?
OK fine letâs assume itâs really really difficult to get certified. But whatâs the point here when issues are still piling up like crazy ([Ed.]) in numbers and intensity Fairphone does not seem to handle very well even after you/they passed?
You make it almost sound like, whenever you pass the certification all issues arising afterwards are Googleâs responsibility. Thatâs not how it works and especially not in this case.
Youâre always responsible for the software you sell as a manufacturer no matter how much certified third-party software you ship with it. At the very least your customer will always view it like that. And Google ⌠theyâre the worst business partner one can have, if you ask me⌠why insisting so hard on working under them? There really are alternatives to it. Alternatives which would very much align with Fairness and Sustainability.
AFAIK you need the certification to be allowed to bundle Google apps with the device. As probably >90% of FP customers expect the Google apps to be running on their device thereâs not really a way around it.
Else do some reading hereâŚ
(Sorry for ignoring your guesstimation completely)
If I may⌠my point was Fairphone is deliberately (because they simply donât care) doing a poor job developing software IMO. And all I hear is "well thatâs a pretty flawed perception because passing Googleâs certification process is hardâ.
Personally I donât care whether they pass or not (and I think many others donât care either) because it does not seem to address the myriads of software issues theyâre still having even after passing for years. so ok⌠good job on passing ..but boo on ignoring everything else.
(first of all let me say how I just love how you always dig up up those extremely informative posts. thank you and how do you do that? HoweverâŚ)
Iâm not convinced.
(letâs also ignore that this random unbeknownst ([Ed. at the time]) guy person you were refering to just said themself that those numbers are their very own estimations and thereâs no source for it whatsoeverâŚ
also âlolâ wrt âapprox. 6534765894â ⌠you do know what approx. means dude, do you) ([Ed. I still find that legitimately funny, because people really do that quite often .. but joking about stuff is not allowed here, so be gone])
Assuming you meant the fact that those Google certifications involve many tests.. yeah? so? Your implication is that the mere number of tests says anything of quality or complexity? I donât think so. It maybe so but very often itâs not.
Not implying that my case represents the world either but in my company we have test suites which include just a very small number of tests⌠however theyâre extremely well designed and well written, passing them alone gives your already so much feedback of what to expect from your product release⌠and then we have test suites which give home to millions of âŚletâs callâem tooâŚâtestsâ⌠they always pass, all of them. itâs really nonsense running them really (because what you can conclude from them is basically nul). weâre still doing it⌠for the fun⌠and because project managers just love showing those numbers to the higher ups.
(Having said that. I did not finish the 2h+ youtube video by Shiftphone yet though.)
P.S.: Since you joined the âwhoever dares to criticize Fairphone shall be executed â crowd (iâm just messing with you. [Ed. Disclaimer: It was meant as a teasing joke because I really feel that criticizing Fairphone is extremely frowned upon here, esp. wrt. the person I was replying to who I thought could take a joke. However, I was wrong. My sincerest apologies.]) oposing debate partyâŚ
(sincere question coming up) why arenât you using âFairphoneOSâ yourself⌠and instead rather fancy a small volunteer community project as OS provider and even advocating for it?!
Wait what? Et tu, Brute?!.. I did not convince you with my fancy list? Of all people.. And I spent so much time researching it.. I even missed my weekly Baccara. [Ed. it was meant as a teasing joke replying to what I perceived as a very stubborn refusal to also acknowledge my point of view while completely ignoring the context that I gave]
Jokes aside. Iâm not trying to convince you. Iâm trying to convince myself here⌠that thereâs still hope for Fairphone. Yes please do tell me that Iâm having it all wrong. By all meansâŚ
What Iâm reading here every day in this forum by so many troubled people (yes despite the obvious bias) does tell me a different story though IMO.
OK you got me here. Iâm lost⌠youâre saying youâre not believing me agreeing with you?! Out of curiosity. Do you consider every reconciliation approach âdown playingâ or the fact that âyes, nothing is just black or white â thatâs why weâre having this conversation in the first placeâ?
(Also please donât answer my retorical questions as iâm obviously messing with you)
Nuhhhu, see.. Thatâs what Iâm saying. Youâre making it too easy for yourself or Fairphone. If you already start with âwell get used to it, software is flawed by definitionâ ⌠why doing any decent developing or testing at all then.
I mean, ok, letâs just all agree we couldnât do any better and those Egyptians with their stones and ropes just got extremely lucky building gigantic and perfectly symmetric buildings over and over again on sand which would last thousands of years through massive storms, brutal heat and a frog plaque (so Iâm told)
We (all) can always do better and should, is what Iâm saying.
Come to think of it..Ever asked yourself âwhy donât we have insight on that?â We customersâ that isâŚFairphone are you listening?
But really..So youâre saying (and in regard to your original statement.. something about all people ranting here have no say because they clearly lack knowledge in software development)âŚthat.. only Android OS developers (preferably working for Fairphone because theyâre the only ones who can possibly know for sure, right?) may form an opinion about whether Fairphone is doing a decent job or not (wrt. general software development at Fairphone)
So which expertise is granted in me at all then? If not expertise as a customer⌠and not expertise as a software developer either?!
(attention, topic derailing alert)
Isnât the real problem that dearly Sir Average Joe and his peers (or letâs just call them âField Beta Testersâ), have been trained throughout decades to just accept every rancid (software) crepes (;P) that is thrown at them (yes Iâm looking at you Microsoft) because ..well itâs software, what can you do about it?
Were are issues âpiling up like crazyâ?
Yes, there are issues, but that is to be expected, when upgrading two major Android versions at the very same time. And you could not make it even bigger, right?
You do not have to be, just donât use FPâs OS on your phone. The good news about this is, that they do not force you to use their OS but keep the device rather open for other AOSP based OSes.
And, BTW you could just stop ranting about a OS that you do not use.
There is nothing like that. The critic is there, valid and at least FP is a company that listens to constructive critics (some category you definitely fail to be part of) and tries to eliminate the causes for such critics. Try that with any of the big companies like Apple or SamsungâŚ
And now I am stopping feedingâŚ
<°)))><
Sure you can ignore the person/developer who helped FP to upgrade to Android Versions not supported by anyone else, like Qualcomm and helped to keep it up running for 7 years with FPOS and who is developing LOS for the FP3. I personally rather believe someone showing knowledge about what they are talking about instead of any random user spreading their not factual based opinions. So where are your facts that those tests do not exist?
Finally, with this comment you qualify here in this topic for me as a troll and I as well will stop feeding.