But you did think the provided information (on paper) was not sufficient, not? So, what else do you expect?
Well, I have to agree with @anon9505190 to some extent, that I do think having a good documentation helps to figure how software works.
But I nevertheless doubt that for a product like a phone it would lead to a significant improvement for the user base. What we can see here in the FP forum (as well as in other places) is that many people who have problems haven’t even read this very short manual or the support pages on the FP website. So personally I think that a detailed documentation, as much as I agree with you that it would be of added value, might only be read by a small minority, which probably will also find answers to their questions through web search.
So I am not convinced that a detailed documentation would make the situation significantly better.
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Nope, I guess I’m just too subtle.
My original post was about how SLAs are irrelevant. As SLA’s are not relevant, measuring concepts that belong to them (like downtime), have no use - they do not contribute to a solution and the values you’d get have no constructive use. Your response is then basically (at least by implication) ‘because there is no manual’, which is both not relevant to the discussion on whether downtime is in any way useful as a concept, nor factually accurate.
In an attempt to avoid misunderstandings: It is a problem when people cannot use their phone, but I do not see how adding up those minutes is going to help.
I just don’t see what it actually is that you want to achieve (and how you plan to get there). Are any of the following what you want?:
- Better / centralised documentation
- More support staff / shorter waiting times
- A product recall
In none of those the collection of downtime seems relevant for a solution, so I’m guessing you mean something else. Right now all I see is waste of energy that could be better spent actually helping people.
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Despite of your subtle excerpts I still think that good documentation would make it easier to give support and reduce problems in using this FP2 device which would lead to less downtime of the device for costumers.
How much of this documentation is required can be found only dispersed here in the forum given by the topics and incidents. Especially the ones that produces bigger downtimes should be summarized first and added to documentation that the customer better read before he switches his FP on. Therefor you have to find out the relevant incidents by criteria e.g. by downtimes.
I still think that some readers of this thread understood my perceptions e.g. @fp1_wo_sw_updates, see above.
Example: Many blackscreen issues and incidents can be simplified for a support if most users would be prepared from beginning on e.g. by compound documents that shouldnot be dispersed in longer lists of topics behind many discussions of postings. Only little editorial is required for the mostly recommended procedures of disassembling the display component. WIthout this new and better documentation still many new customers still believes he or she only has to disassemble the display only if it has to be replaced e.g. after cracking by later accidents.
If you cannot see how downtime can be avoided by better documentation , sorry, yes, I can.
Maybe you may have noticed that there is no link between official documentations, tutorials etc and this forum. On the other hand you are answering especially the bigger problems and incidents here. Perfect . Really ? The more, better and quicker you answer here the less official docu is required.
First I have to say that the small user guide is not bad and really well structered. But it easy to see that there are no links from official documents to the forum and vice versa. However the argument about people that doesnot want to read official documentation is well known. So what ? Maybe competent people from this forum don’t want or cannot refer to official documentation and vice versa. But many solution hints are given here to internal postings. I cannot see why this cannot be better connected. If it would be better connected maybe more people would read more official docu.
Just as another proof on my last answer to your post: “Groundhog day!” (“DE: Und täglich grüßt das Murmeltier”)
Recently I complained how @paulakreuzer closed a post due to blackscreen and only one answer from you. While I was still preparing an answer, Paul decided my answer is not required any more and closed @erchauvi . I was not amused and for @erchauvi another research into a longer list of postings started . I don’t see an advantage compared to official documentation because users have to do more research than in documents with better editorial.
I think this thread could need a cool down … and a bit of down time. 
I think this is all valid and fair as long as we are careful about how we discuss these topics here. Also we shouldn’t forget … we are just the users we are not the company. We can only discuss, that’s all we have and maybe some of the ideas here get picked up by others.
Most people here want to help and make the FP as a product better or are looking for help. Or both Let’s not get hung up on what’s the best method to describe or measure the quality of an item or a service or the best solution to fix this. Let’s just discuss the pros and cons without getting personal.
There are many ways and concepts to measure and test things. I hope we will be able to discuss them all in the future!
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I agree on that one.
That’s why I support both ideas, a FP wiki and a FP stack exchange; that said, also FP seems to acknowledge that communication could be improved.
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@anon9505190 please stop mentioning me in this thread. I got really annoyed by this topic so I feel I won’t be able to keep my cool as I should as a moderator. If you need some moderation here please use the flag function or the @moderators tag and someone will help.
Also please keep the discussion about downtime in this thread. (where I don’t have to see it) Don’t answer everybody’s post about problems with their FPs with questions about downtimes and don’t summon them here. You can change the title of this thread to something you think could attract many people that would be interested in the topic, but if you continue to missionize your favorite subject all over the forum I’ll flag those posts as spam.
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Sorry , but I didnot complain elsewhere about you.This is not true. Instead of complaining elsewhere about you I sent you immediately a personal message after beeing ruled out by you from that known post of @erchauvi. You now write you could loose your coolness. Therefor I also sent you a personal message after you ironically wrote about me in public about my (personal?) “precious downtime”. Before that you “invented” here the former headline about this topic pretending that you understood the issue of FP2s downtime about many #blackscreen issues.
You have chosen a headlline : “downtime of FP2 … how we can make stop it”!
And you are telling us now that you may loose your coolness as moderator ?
Sorry
For this topic called downtime I wanted to collect outtage points in time of the device from other FP2 customers. One @moderator now prohibited this as beeing some kind of mission of myself. If he stigmatizes my posts while I am asking other customers for downtimes the forum may suffer from reputation damage. Not only my reputation would be damaged. So far about his intention.
Therefor this topic and the discussion about it became pointless without investigating the downtimes of the FP2 outtage point in times.
For others who read this topic from the end (bottom up) :
The issue of the downtime of FP2 is easy to explain and many here understood the message:
The official documentation explains the disassembling of the display only as a measure of simple replacement e.g. of cracked display glass.
Meanwhile many customers have to disassemble and reassemble the display unit of the FP2 to repair by chance unpredictable effects mostly with misbehaving touchscreen gestures, slow motion of FP2 , blackscreens and many more severe bugs and glitches. Because replacing the display unit for self-repair of design errors is not documented by FP the device suffers from loosing reputation as beeing unstable although many of these glitches maybe repaired by users themselves. Therefore they have to be informed BEFORE by official documents that disassembly of the display is not only a measure of replacements display units.
Therefor I started my downtime-initiative to collect data e.g. points in time that I call downtime.
Because this has been now prohibited the whole topic became useless forced by one @moderator . I am not sure if he understood the meaning of downtime because he stated that only 1% of all FP2 customers experience those issues. Although he is not from FP team he decided this to be neglectable. Maybe he blames me to maybe damage FP2 reputation by investigating at other customers for for statistic data.
I’m sorry, but I don’t see that anyone has prohibited you from developing your downtime topic.
However, I do understand why there is criticism on the approach of posting this issue also into other threads. In the case I found it, it did not at all contribute in solving the problem of the user, but rather created additional confusion. Thus I also think that the approach in bringing in the downtime discussion into threads where people look for solutions to their problems is misleading, simply because it does not directly contribute to solve the issues discussed.
I understand that you also want to contribute to improving the user experience with FP2, which is good to see! But I think we have to develop our ideas and approaches in a way, that people who look for immediate help are not getting additionally confused, but receive help and support as straight forward as they need it. In my opinion any other meta discussion, such as the downtime issue, are better off being discussed separately.
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Can you show me an example where s.b. got confused because I only asked to notice date & time about the outtage ?
Yes, you’re right , it doesnot immediately help for the users concern directly. However this topic is only and all about collecting those statistics. I announced it here and some other people liked the idea.
I would like to know from you an alternativ plan how to collect statistics about outtages and downtimes. Can you sahre some ideas to this, please ?
regards,
For example in topic “Blank Screen and then unable to gain any response” (e.g. post 7).
I understand that for developing your idea it may be important to gain data, but personally I think it is a bit exaggerating to ask people in all possible threads to deliver their downtime data for the topic you’re advocating. To me it seems that for many users (also looking at the discussion within this thread) this topic does not have the same importance as for you.
Maybe you can make the title of this thread more interesting and call for contribution/data in the title, so people who find the topic interesting can easily find it and contribute.
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https://forum.fairphone.com/t/blank-screen-and-then-unable-to-gain-any-responce/
The example shows how sadie once mixed my name with another person.
I am not sure if this is the kind of confusion that I is of concern here ?
If this is the only kind of confusion you think of ?
Now you are telling me I try to ask people in all possible threads , sorry , Isn’t this now too generalized by you this time ? I made clear that I only ask people who open new topics with clear relevance to unavailibility of the complete FP2.e.g. cases belonging to blackscreen
My problem for understanding is how one criticsising guys tell me that theese cases are only 1% and neglectable and now you tell me I would ask all people about all kind of incidents ?
Can we agree on a total of 3 topics I ever used until now within 1 week where I was asking somebody about downtimes ?
OK you write I do it for my own investigation and not for more than a handfull others. Yes, surely am I personally truely interested in statistics about reiability of FP2. So what ?
Now we are back again at Churchills proverb “Don’t believe in statistics that you didnot fake by your own” . And yes I started this topic after I have been informed - not by official FP team - that only 1% of broken FP2 devices are neglectable. Can you follow why I started this investigation ?
Ok, and it should be in a central place, so arranged / disseminated by Fairphone, as to avoid further fragmentation, if I understood your other posts correctly.
Or other criteria, such as how many support requests support get on a specific issue and whether the problem can be described well enough that a novice user can understand and remedy the problem.
There’s been a series of blog posts and updates to support pages about some of the issues that get a lot of support requests. An example is the one (updated yesterday) for “Screen stays black after a call”. Is this the kind of thing you’d want to see more of? I guess not, as you mention:
So is your suggestion then to distribute a new user guide with future deliveries of the phone with an explicit general tip to reassemble the phone if it is misbehaving? (And hope that people actually read the manual before they start the phone).
If you do want to collect data, I’d suggest either starting some polls in this topic for a couple of the problems you’re interested in (E.g. My screen often freezes, and I estimate that I haven’t been able to use my phone as result for at least X,Y,Z minutes), or setting up a post where you explain what data you want (it helps to include a specific example of the format) that we can then turn into a wiki, so people can add their data in.
The original headline here was ‘“Downtime” what is it and how can we make it stop?’. Making it stop refers to downtime, not the discussion of the topic. I take this as an attempt to keep the discussion going in a constructive direction: how do we use the concept to help people avoid not being able to use their phone.
Topics aren’t being closed because you’re composing a reply (I’m not even aware of a way to see whether someone is writing one), but usually because we try to keep discussion central to avoid people having to dig through thousands of topics (which you yourself complain about), or because the problem is solved.
We don’t hide the topics that were closed because there was already another topic on that issue so that there are more chances to find what you need by search - if you get a closed topic as a search result, this will usually take you to the relevant central topic. For some of the longer topics there is a summary in the first post, and for others the first post is a wiki that most forum users can edit. If you feel the forum should work differently, #meta would be a place to discuss this.
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Sorry, it should have said all possible kind of threads, meaning to different kind of topics.
The example I meant was “Not sure what you mean by downtime? it simply isn’t working and before
it went off soft wear operating systems were reporting failing?”
But listen, I really don’t want to start an argument here, as this is too much of a downtime from my work, and also because I appreciate your concerns about improving the time people can spent with their FP2 productively.
My point is just that I have the feeling that not everyone sees your approach as important as you do, and thus may find it counter-productive to spread the call for data in different topics so prominently or comprehensively.
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if the spedific issue is completely unavailibiliity I guess more support is requested. (we are lacking of some support by FP) This is why I care for the most urgent case that I call FP2-donwtime cases. If you want to extend criteria to many other issues feel free to contribute.
Your example is well known (also by myself including the fix ). No, it’s rather an outtage or another bug. Everybody can see the device works partially.
For bugs, shorter outtages or other glitches the elektronic list of the bug-report here is sufficiant. But the downtime because of contact problems with the display and it’s self-repair time is not a temporary bug or outtage. If it is a problem made by design also because this design is revolutionary new. Then users should be informed before. Because they should be prepared to disassemble their device not because a single module has to be replaced .
Notice : Disassembly of FP2 is not always trendy or usefull.
I heard of this proposal already several times. A poll is a random sample valid for only one point in time like a probe. Thanks for the sugesstion I think about it. However I had in mind an ongoing research because the data has to be more current. You are proposing a survey. But many customers especially those suffered from downtime left FP2. This devides downtime from your other criteria.
I knew this would fall back on me. But you know about drawbacks of double negation in language. We should only use it if downtime would be a clear term like downtime for services as we talked about here earlier. I agree with you that we shouldnot use the term downtime in the professional sense of SLA e.g. planned downtime. Nevertheless the former headline means to increase uptime e.g. more stability. But this topic is not about technically getting more stabiliity. It is about how we deal with the known fact of some instability of FP2 that is not a bug but rather given by the modular design. I am not sure when it will be diminished and it’s subsequent downtime may ever stop.
This means the former headline was given by someone who didnot understand it ( or didnot like it anyway)
Guess what ? I asked the moderator for a link where to find the manual about using this forum. Unfortunately he doesnot talk to me any more ;-(
To be honest due to user named erchauvi I was shocked that a user who suffers from FP2-downtime sees how his topic is closed like a traffic redirection . Unfortunately we don 't know if his case here in the forum is solved. Yesterday ee reported me that it was not. So he is in the traffic loop (forever?). Frustrating, isn’t it. Should I now ask how we can make it stop for him ?
I am not sure if the undocumented policies on this forum really helps even the most concerned users with downtime issues of their FP2.
No problem, most of it is linked from here. I see you already found the forum rules that are linked from there (as you have a “read FAQ” badge).
Now we can repeat our discussion about the use and sense of a documetation versus a "playground-forum"
As you know I have been banned not to use the summon asterisk to call somebody especially for this topic here.
Yes, I did this here by accident because I didnot learn it only by looking on the playground-forum.
When I get my FAQ-badge I searched a descriptive kind of documentation what kind of notification users get after they have been summoned. I couldnot find and I would like to repeat my demand for a description of the asterisk here again to you.
You cannot learn it just by looking around in the fairground-forumm right ?.
Also I cannot understand why I shouldnot summon somebody in this topic here. When I use somebodys name together with his topic it was fair enough to me to inform him that I took his topic by example.
I announced here that I would ask other users for their times noitced where their phone is unavailable as if it was broken.
No moderator prevented me from doing so or talked about it with me . Obviously they even waited if I really would start outside this topic.
Of course my investigation for some people would leave the impression of an unstable device.
And this is why I have been muzzled , right ?